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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16952
02/17/06 02:41 PM
02/17/06 02:41 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, you wrote: quote:
Your unwillingness to provide a concrete example is making it difficult to understand your position.
To which I responded:
quote:
I gave you a concrete answer. I don't understand your response. I said, if you want an explicit example, here's one. Didn't you read that?
You asked for a concrete example, and I gave you one. Yet you say my "unwillingess to provide a concrete example" makes it difficult for you to understand my position.
To which I respond, I DID provide you a concrete example. I asked if you read it. You haven't responded. I'm still confused.
You ask for a concrete example. I give you one. And you respond by accusing me of being unwilling to provide you a concrete example. So why are you accusing me of being unwilling to provide a concrete example when I did that very thing?
The only thing I could think of is that somehow you didn't read what I wrote. So I asked you if you read it, and you didn't answer my question. So now I'm asking if you read where I asked if you read what I wrote before, and if the answer is "yes", did you read what I wrote before? (where I provide a concrete example, as you requested)
Regarding your list of questions, they are obviously rhetorical. The one about the speed limit was interesting though. Which law does that break? (i.e., which of the 10 Commandments).
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16953
02/18/06 03:20 AM
02/18/06 03:20 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
No preparation for baptism could cover every possible sin which could come up. Any sin which a person would become aware of after being baptized would be an example.
If you want a specific example, here's one:
You then quoted the bold part of the following passage:
quote:
He who blessed the nobleman at Capernaum is just as desirous of blessing us. But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love. {DA 200.3}
The nobleman wanted to see the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn. Not because we see or feel that God hears us are we to believe. We are to trust in His promises. When we come to Him in faith, every petition enters the heart of God. When we have asked for His blessing, we should believe that we receive it, and thank Him that we have received it. Then we are to go about our duties, assured that the blessing will be realized when we need it most. When we have learned to do this, we shall know that our prayers are answered. God will do for us "exceeding abundantly," "according to the riches of His glory," and "the working of His mighty power." Eph. 3:20, 16; 1:19. {DA 200.4}
Tom, I am struggling to understand this example. Are you suggesting that a baptized, born again believer, someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, someone who is partaking of the divine nature - is guilty of doubt and unbelief?
Also, your response to the list of sins I posted above suggests that you believe no born again believing SDA can ignorantly commit them. Did I read you right? If so, then would it be safe to say that they are not part of the "any sin" you mentioned above?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16954
02/18/06 03:25 AM
02/18/06 03:25 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Which one of the 10 commandments does breaking the speed limit violate? I suppose it's the third. Anytime we misrepresent the character of God we are sinning.
James
4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16955
02/18/06 03:57 AM
02/18/06 03:57 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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To define sin as something like exceeding the speed limit leads to problems, specifically situation ethics, unless you wish to take the position that it is never right to exceed the speed limit. Sometimes it's OK to break the speed limit, and sometimes it's not.
But real sin is not like that. Real sin is a violation of the moral law; it's always sin. If we define sin in such a way that a thing may or may not be a sin, we start down a slippery slope. This is why the Lord has defined sin as that which is contrary to His law.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16956
02/17/06 04:00 PM
02/17/06 04:00 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I quoted the following as an example of something which could be a sin of ignorance. quote:
The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him.
Based on this quote you wrote, "Tom, I am struggling to understand this example. Are you suggesting that a baptized, born again believer, someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, someone who is partaking of the divine nature - is guilty of doubt and unbelief?"
How do you get this question out of the above quote?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16957
02/17/06 04:10 PM
02/17/06 04:10 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Also, your response to the list of sins I posted above suggests that you believe no born again believing SDA can ignorantly commit them. Did I read you right? If so, then would it be safe to say that they are not part of the "any sin" you mentioned above?
No to both questions. I don't know of any "education" which one goes through before baptism which teaches that exceeding the speed limit is a sin. To suggest that one's education is so thorough upon becoming an SDA that one cannot in ignorance break the speed limit seems to me to be a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16959
02/18/06 01:26 AM
02/18/06 01:26 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I believe it is a sin to break traffic laws when it is NOT okay to break them. I also believe it is a sin to break any man-made law when it does not conflict with the laws of God. Earthly governments serve as ministers of God. Do you agree? Besides, there were exceptions to sins in the Bible - David and his band eating the showbread, to name one.
Romans
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
I quoted DA 200 in its context (see above). It is clear to me that Sister White is talking about people who demand evidence before they are willing believe in Jesus, before they are willing to trust in Him. This is not what I would expect from a properly prepared baptismal candidate. Do you agree?
Tom, anyone who gets pulled over for speeding without a cause knows they are guilty. They read about it the driver’s manual before they were issued a license. They do not require post-baptismal training to learn about it, or to know that it is a sin. It’s common sense, right?
Also, I’m still not sure what you think about the long list of questions I posted above. You simply said they were "rhetorical" and then pretty much dismissed them, except for the one dealing with speeding. What do you believe about the rest of the list? Is it possible for a SDA, who was properly prepared the way the SOP describes, to sin in any of the ways I listed without knowing it is a sin?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16960
02/18/06 01:37 AM
02/18/06 01:37 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John, I'm sorry, but I still don't understand your point. Please help me out here. Are you suggesting that if someone has faith in Jesus that they cannot sin ignorantly? Does this mean they are sinless? How does this apply to born again believers who have not yet learned about the seventh-day Sabbath?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16961
02/18/06 03:19 AM
02/18/06 03:19 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Are you suggesting that if someone has faith in Jesus that they cannot sin ignorantly? Does this mean they are sinless? How does this apply to born again believers who have not yet learned about the seventh-day Sabbath?
I am saying that he who walks by faith cannot think in terms of “sin of ignorance” because faith is trust, and trust does not insinuate evil. The work of God is to justify all those who are of the faith. So if God justifies who is he that condemns.
The spirit of doubt is Sin, and is faultfinding and insinuating evil where it is not evident. For one to think in terms of “sins of ignorance” one has to forsake faith to search out evil. To do that one has to partake of the spirit of Satan akin to his dealing with Job. Whether one does it on oneself or others is irrelevant.
Hence: It is a sin to insinuate sins of ignorance.
What is faith?
Faith when it is a belief is nothing less than a hot head and cold heart. It is always anxious never at rest always on guard to find fault. It always judges others or oneself according to one’s beliefs. This kind of faith brought about sin.
Faith when it is a relationship is a cool head and a hot heart. It is the place of rest, peace and trust. It is the place where personal commitment can be and is made between two people. This is the kind of faith that is needed for salvation.
Shalom
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