She wrote this:

quote:

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But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love.

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The "we" here includes her, the author, who was a properly prepared candidate for baptism, don't you agree?

MM, what is the point in your long list of questions? I certainly think it's possible for a born again candiate to ignorantly sin by exceeding the speed limit, and be a properly prepared candidate for baptism. Do I need to go through every question? As to what a person might or might be able to do ignorantly would depend on the preparation of each person, and their own experience, etc.

I think the example given by the Spirit of Prophecy is an excellent one. God would have us renounce the selfishness which leads us to seek Him. That fits the bill, doesn't it? There's very few baptismal candiates aware of this sin. It's a pretty subtle one. There are many Adventists, or Christians in general, who would be totally unaware that they selfishly seek God. Don't you agree?

Tom, Is it right to think that anything less than "perfect knowledge" is sin.

Rom 5:13 ... but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

John, I think I'm missing your point, because it makes me think you are saying that so long as we have faith we are sinless irrespective of what we think and believe. For example, in the case of born again believers who ignorantly observe the wrong Sabbath day. Does their faith make the truth of none effect?

"But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love."

MM:In the corporate sense, yes, but not in the personal sense. I do not believe Sister White was guilty of withholding belief and trust until God proved Himself. She was beyond such doubt and disbelief.

Tom:Let's look at the quote. She says:
a)We often seek Jesus for some earthly good
b)Upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love
c)The Savior longs to give us a greater blessing, and delays the blessing, to show us the evil of our own hearts
d)The Savior longs to give us a greater blessing, and delays the blessing, to show us the deep need of His grace
e)He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him

This is speaking of the evil of our hearts, and our deep need of grace. This is true of all of us, even after we're baptized.

MM:She thoroughly trusted God with all of her heart. Daniel included himself when he prayed for his people, but it didn’t mean he was equally guilty of their sins, right?

Tom:True, but she wasn't praying corporately for sins. She was making a point, which is that we have a deep need of grace, and that God desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him.

MM:The purpose of my long list of questions is to help me understand your position. You keep saying or implying, so it seems to me, that a properly prepared baptismal candidate can ignorantly commit “any sin” after they are baptized. Is that what you believe? Or, do you believe something else?

Tom:I wrote that any sin of which a person who is baptized is ignornant of committing is a possible sin of ignorance. This does not mean they could ignorantly commit any sin. Don't you see the difference?

Perhaps an analagous sentence would help. Any city that where there's a lot of drug traffic could have a lot of murders. This isn't saying that any city could have a lot of drug traffic. Similarly my saying that any sin a person committed ignorantly after baptism could be a sin of ignorance doesn't mean they could commit any sin.

MM: If someone is properly prepared for baptism, in accordance with the commandment of Jesus and the counsel of Sister White, which is to say they were thoroughly made aware of SDA doctrine and agreed to live accordingly – which one of the sins that I listed could they commit without realizing it is a sin? Please help me out here.


Tom It looks to me like you just misunderstood what I wrote.I don't think the sin questions would help, as it doesn't look to me to be where the problem of misunderstanding lies. It looks like the problem was you read what I wrote as unqualified, when that wasn't the case. Hopefully the city crime analogy will help clarify.

John, let me rephrase what you’re saying, and then let me know if I got it right or wrong. You are saying that if we insinuate or imply it is possible we are committing sins of ignorance we are, thereby, guilty of unbelief. We shouldn’t go around wondering if we are committing sins of ignorance.

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Tom, I seriously doubt Sister White was guilty of seeking Jesus for selfish, self serving reasons. I believe Jesus gives us victory over this sin when we are born again. Please understand that I’m talking about true and genuine conversion - not the conversions that don’t count as true conversion in the sight of God.

Why would you think that Sister White's comments were not directed towards people who are genuinely converted? She included herself among those to whom her comments are directed.

In the quote she says we often seek Jesus for temporal reasons. There's no sin in that. Often God graciously grants us our request. Sometimes He doesn't in order to reveal to us a selfishness we didn't know existed. He longs for us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. In order for us to renounce this selfishness, we must first see it. In order that we might see it, He delays the answer to our request.

What she wrote only has application for those who are converted. It has application to all who are converted, which is why she doesn't mind including herself. She would pray, "Lord, show me the worst of my case." There are things about our character , including hidden selfishness in our motives in seeking Christ, of which we are unaware. Delaying an answer to prayer is one method God uses to bring these to our attentions.