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Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16972
02/20/06 03:14 AM
02/20/06 03:14 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
MM, Let us understand this. I will set aside theology for a moment and speak some common wisdom.

There is not one man in his right mind in this world (of whatever religion or lack thereof) that thinks he knows everything there is to know. There is not one who thinks they have nothing to learn. Therefore the answer to your question is simple, everyone is ignorant of something. Being ignorant means that your actions in relation to it are oblivious, hence the probability of them being amiss is at least 50/50. To wonder if one is ignorant of something would be a repudiation of reality and hence sin, because it is very evident that everyone is ignorant in something. Therefore the probability of our actions being amiss is very real. But you should know that such actions are not what sin is about and that God does not call that sin. And if God does not call it sin then to think of it as sin is to put oneself above God.

It is because I know that I am ignorant of many things, that I do not wonder about them, much less try to solve them. But I know one who knows all that there is to be known, and He says that if I put my faith in him then I am what I ought to be. Therefore it is righteousness by faith.

The beauty of a child is healthy learning (which implies ignorance). And the Savior said of such is the kingdom of heaven. Nobody expects you to know; nobody faults you for not knowing, that is why you are in school – to learn. Therefore it is by faith and not by works. By faith we learn from our heavenly Father and are righteous as long as we are in faith (having a teachable spirit). Even as a child growing up in wisdom and stature with God and men. We are not orphans that we need to make our way in this world alone; we have a heavenly Father such as cares for you and me.

The question I have for you is this:

Can a child of God know whether their heart is right with God?
What does it mean to have a right heart with God?
What are the means of ascertaining that position?

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16973
02/21/06 03:11 AM
02/21/06 03:11 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
Tom wrote:

In the quote she says we often seek Jesus for temporal reasons. There's no sin in that.

Okay, Tom, I can accept this insight. But I cannot believe that a truly born again believer, who is connected to Jesus, can be guilty of distrusting Jesus until He proves Himself.

quote:
John wrote:

1. Can a child of God know whether their heart is right with God?
2. What does it mean to have a right heart with God?
3. What are the means of ascertaining that position?

1. Yes.
2. Living up to the light God has revealed.
3. The Word of God.

John, your ideas on sins of ignorance are confusing to me.

quote:
John wrote:

There is no such a thing as a sin of ignorance, therefore it is falsehood.

Therefore the answer to your question is simple, everyone is ignorant of something.

It is because I know that I am ignorant of many things, that I do not wonder about them, much less try to solve them.

According to this formula, I am led to believe that ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is not a sin that requires the blood of Jesus to atone for.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16974
02/20/06 04:14 PM
02/20/06 04:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, here's the quote.

quote:
But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love. {DA 200.3}
This is talking about unknown selfishness in our hearts.

For some reason you wrote

quote:
But I cannot believe that a truly born again believer, who is connected to Jesus, can be guilty of distrusting Jesus until He proves Himself.
I have no idea why. She's not talking about this. She's talking about our renouncing the selfishness which leads us to seek Jesus.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16975
02/20/06 05:56 PM
02/20/06 05:56 PM
R
rhammen  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 64
Everett, WA USA
John the Baptist distrusted Jesus while he was in prison. Was he born again? I have no doubt that he was. r

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16976
02/20/06 08:32 PM
02/20/06 08:32 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
John, your ideas on sins of ignorance are confusing to me.

John wrote:
quote:
There is no such a thing as a sin of ignorance, therefore it is falsehood.

Therefore the answer to your question is simple, everyone is ignorant of something.

It is because I know that I am ignorant of many things, that I do not wonder about them, much less try to solve them.


There should be nothing confusing if you take the statements in the context they were in. Please explain what is confusing about what I said, and not only what conclusions you draw from what I said.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16977
02/20/06 08:38 PM
02/20/06 08:38 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
According to this formula, I am led to believe that ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is not a sin that requires the blood of Jesus to atone for.
One being ignorant cannot break the Sabbath. There is no conscience that can register such a thing as breaking something ignorantly. As such it is not a sin and there is no blood needed for cleansing, for the blood of Christ is for the cleansing of our conscience.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16978
02/20/06 08:47 PM
02/20/06 08:47 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I asked:
1. Can a child of God know whether their heart is right with God?
2. What does it mean to have a right heart with God?
3. What are the means of ascertaining that position?
quote:
MM responded:
1. Yes.
2. Living up to the light God has revealed.
3. The Word of God.

Your answers are very interesting, but not very enlightening. I don’t see any need for faith or God in your answers.

What happened to ignorance?

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16979
02/20/06 09:13 PM
02/20/06 09:13 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
I don’t see any need for faith or God in your answers.
(!). An interesting observation.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16980
02/20/06 09:20 PM
02/20/06 09:20 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
What happened to ignorance?
It's still alive and kicking.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16981
02/21/06 12:07 AM
02/21/06 12:07 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, the following paragraph comes immediately after the one you like to quote. This type of disbelief in not indicative of born again believers.

The nobleman wanted to see [italicized emphasis is original] the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn. Not because we see or feel that God hears us are we to believe. We are to trust in His promises. When we come to Him in faith, every petition enters the heart of God. When we have asked for His blessing, we should believe that we receive it, and thank Him that we have received it. Then we are to go about our duties, assured that the blessing will be realized when we need it most. When we have learned to do this, we shall know that our prayers are answered. God will do for us "exceeding abundantly," "according to the riches of His glory," and "the working of His mighty power." Eph. 3:20, 16; 1:19. {DA 200.4}

Rhammen, yes, John was tempted to doubt, but he maintained his faith, right?

DA 216
But the Baptist did not surrender his faith in Christ. The memory of the voice from heaven and the descending dove, the spotless purity of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit that had rested upon John as he came into the Saviour's presence, and the testimony of the prophetic scriptures,--all witnessed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Promised One. {DA 216.3}

John, you asked what happened to ignorance? I agree with Tom. It is alive and kicking. I also agree with you that everyone is ignorant of something. But I disagree with you that doing unlawful labor during the Sabbath hours is not a sin. It is a sin whether the person knows it or not, whether they are conscious of it or not.

GC 587
We may disguise poison by mingling it with wholesome food, but we do not change its nature. On the contrary, it is rendered more dangerous, as it is more likely to be taken unawares. It is one of Satan's devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility. {GC 587.1}

God accommodated sins of ignorance through the priests and the earthly sanctuary. It is clear to me that God considers sins of ignorance to be sins in need of blood atonement. God does not hold us accountable for the sins we commit in ignorance, but He does hold Jesus accountable, who died for sins of ignorance the same as any other sin.

Leviticus
15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
15:30 But the soul that doeth [ought] presumptuously, [whether he be] born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity [shall be] upon him.

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