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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169695
11/07/14 04:38 PM
11/07/14 04:38 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: mm
[sinful flesh]It does not need a Saviour.
This is contrary to the SOP. EGW: Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost, giving His own flesh for the life of the world. {SpM 209.2}

Originally Posted By: mm
It is like any other function of the brain - mind, character, personalty, etc. None of these attributes of the brain are physical organs. They are part of the essence of being human. A surgeon cannot surgically remove them like they can an organ. They can, however, alter them by destroying related parts in the grey matter. Again, sinful flesh is that part of the essence of human nature that tempts us from within to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.
How does the physical alter that mental functions? EGW writes: The flesh, in which the soul tabernacles, belongs to God. {BEcho, October 15, 1900 par. 7}

We can spiritualize away sin. Flesh is a real thing. Sin is a real thing. Sinful flesh is just that, SINFUL FLESH. Flesh is real, sinful flesh is flesh full of sin (sin-ful) by the definition of the word. Sin is not some extrinsic quality. Sin is an intrinsic, real physical entity. Sin affects every living thing on this planet. This cannot be spiritualized away.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169697
11/07/14 11:17 PM
11/07/14 11:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Thank you for stating your belief so plainly, so clearly. It looks like we disagree.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169702
11/08/14 05:10 AM
11/08/14 05:10 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thank you for stating your belief so plainly, so clearly. It looks like we disagree.
And you disagree with the SOP. So be it...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169705
11/08/14 01:35 PM
11/08/14 01:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Sinful flesh tempts people from within to be unlike Jesus, to satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. Exactly how it does so is not as important as knowing it is so. One thing is certain, surgeons cannot remove it or stop it from happening. Not until Jesus returns and rewards them with a sinless flesh will they be free from it. In the meantime, like Jesus, they must actively, consciously choose not to cherish or act out the unholy thoughts and feelings that come to mind via sinful flesh.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169802
11/12/14 01:36 PM
11/12/14 01:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Jesus denied self like born-again believers deny self. His sinful flesh clamored for sinful expression. It tempted Him from within to satisfy His innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169860
11/14/14 04:26 PM
11/14/14 04:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus denied self like born-again believers deny self. His sinful flesh clamored for sinful expression. It tempted Him from within to satisfy His innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

The temptations of Christ, and his sufferings under them, were proportionate to his exalted, sinless character. {3SM 131.4}

It looks like His sufferings were due to sinless character, not sinful flesh.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #169863
11/14/14 04:40 PM
11/14/14 04:40 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: It seems like you are missing my point, namely, they are not guilty of sinning because they have defects and imperfections they refuse to cherish or act out in thought, word, or behavior. Having them is totally different than acting them out. You seem to think they are guilty of sinning even if they don't sin.

A: You've wandered away again. All I'm saying is that the SOP says their natures are seen to be different from Christ's, and I agree. You are trying very hard to disagree with it without saying it aloud.

Jesus was God in sinful flesh. So, yes, His nature was radically different. But, as you know, He never used His divinity to resist temptation. Jesus resisted the same temptations born again believers resist. Jesus' fallen humanity also had the same defects and weaknesses.

You're saying that as the believer gets closer to Jesus, he sees his own faults and imperfections more clearly, and he sees the same defects in Christ? I'm not buying it.

Man was so weakened through transgression that he did not possess sufficient moral power to turn from the service of Satan to the service of the only true God; but Jesus, the Prince of life, to whom is committed “all power in heaven and earth,” will impart to every soul who desires salvation the strength necessary to overcome the enemy of all righteousness. {TMK 125.4}

If you think Jesus "was so weakened through transgression that he did not possess sufficient moral power to turn from the service of Satan," you need new thoughts. The closer you come to Jesus, the clearer you will perceive man's weakness in contrast with Christ's strength.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169864
11/14/14 04:42 PM
11/14/14 04:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Save for the fact Jesus inherited the same "sinful flesh" born-again believers possess. His flesh nature was sinful, fallen, degraded, defiled - identical to the sinful flesh nature born-again believers possess. Not once did Jesus cherish or act out the unholy desires of His sinful flesh nature. So it must be with born-again believers. They too, like Jesus, must recognize and resist the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169866
11/14/14 04:52 PM
11/14/14 04:52 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
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California, USA
The same imperfections? I don't think so.

However, you may continue to believe that Jesus was defective without fear of punishment from me. That's another point of divergence between us.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169870
11/14/14 10:28 PM
11/14/14 10:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
His sinful flesh nature was fallen, defiled, degraded. Her words - not mine.

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