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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16982
02/21/06 12:13 AM
02/21/06 12:13 AM
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OP
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quote:
Originally posted by John Boskovic:
Your answers are very interesting, but not very enlightening. I don’t see any need for faith or God in your answers.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but in reality they depend totally upon faith in God and His word.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16983
02/21/06 12:22 AM
02/21/06 12:22 AM
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MM:Tom, the following paragraph comes immediately after the one you like to quote. This type of disbelief in not indicative of born again believers. quote:
The nobleman wanted to see [italicized emphasis is original] the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn.
I think you are taking a very dangerous attitude here. Ellen White wrote, "This lesson we also have to learn." But your attitude is, "Not me!"
Unless I'm misreading you here. Am I?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16984
02/21/06 04:08 PM
02/21/06 04:08 PM
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Tom, I think it is one of many lessons we must learn before we are born again - not afterwards. The "we" refers to people who, like the nobleman, are in the process of conversion, but who have not yet experienced the miracle of rebirth. Doubt and distrust and withholding faith in Jesus until He proves Himself are not elements of a properly prepared born again believer.
DA 172
The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16985
02/21/06 11:14 PM
02/21/06 11:14 PM
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quote:
Tom, I think it is one of many lessons we must learn before we are born again - not afterwards. The "we" refers to people who, like the nobleman, are in the process of conversion, but who have not yet experienced the miracle of rebirth. Doubt and distrust and withholding faith in Jesus until He proves Himself are not elements of a properly prepared born again believer.
That's not what "we" means. "We" means "I and the rest of a group that includes me." Ellen White was a very direct writer. When she meant the uncoverted, she said so. You must be aware of this, being as familiar with her writings as you are. I doubt you can give me any examples of her using "we" in the manner you are suggesting. However, I'm open to changing my mind if you can provide any.
Another problem with your idea that she doesn't mean to include people who are born again is that she doesn't say so. She doesn't qualify her statement in any way to suggest she has only the unconverted in mind.
Another problem with the idea is that she obviously has her readers in mind when she wrote "we." Her readers would include some who were converted and some who weren't. The implication is that "we" includes the reader without qualification.
Finally, the biggest problem with this interpretation is that one runs the danger of shutting oneself off from any counsel God would have. If one suffers the delusion that one has no selfishness or doubt (I'm not saying this is your position; I'm saying if "one" has this delusion. However, you're position does sound to me periously close to this. I hope I'm way off on this, and that you will correct me.), how can God reach such a one? Any message will be received as "not for me, because I'm born again."
It's like with the Laodecean message. God sends us a message of righteousness by faith, and eye salve to see (the message of righteosness by faith lays the glory of man in the dust), but if we respond, "I don't need this. I'm born again. I used to be blind, but now I see!" how does God reach us?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16986
02/22/06 02:29 PM
02/22/06 02:29 PM
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Tom, surely in the case of a truly converted believer one is not guilty of withholding faith and trust and belief in Jesus until He proves Himself. There is nothing subtle about this state of mind. It requires a conscious, willful, stubborn refusal to trust and believe in Jesus until He proves Himself. For one I myself refuse to believe that this outrageous, sinful state of mind describes the heart of a true believer. I'm sorry you disagree with my feelings about this kind of distrust and disbelief, but there is no way you can persuade me to believe Sister White, or any other truly born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus (think about it – who is abiding in Jesus), can be innocently guilty of blatantly refusing to trust and belief in Jesus until He proves Himself by answering their self-centered, self-serving prayer requests. Not even your Laodicean can be guilty of such a sin. Laodiceans would consider it unspeakably blasphemous to willfully refuse to trust or believe in Jesus. They are too busy feeling like everything is kosher between them and Jesus. They are not guilty of refusing to believe in Jesus. No way. Instead they are guilty of taking Him for granted. They expect Him to answer their prayers. True, they are deceived, but they do not know it. On the outside they appear to be true, trusting, faithful, loyal believers. quote:
COL 408, 411
In the parable, all the ten virgins went out to meet the bridegroom. All had lamps and vessels for oil. For a time there was seen no difference between them. So with the church that lives just before Christ's second coming. All have a knowledge of the Scriptures. All have heard the message of Christ's near approach, and confidently expect His appearing… The class represented by the foolish virgins are not hypocrites. They have a regard for the truth, they have advocated the truth, they are attracted to those who believe the truth; but they have not yielded themselves to the Holy Spirit's working. They have not fallen upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, and permitted their old nature to be broken up.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16987
02/22/06 02:51 PM
02/22/06 02:51 PM
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Tom, surely in the case of a truly converted believer one is not guilty of withholding faith and trust and belief in Jesus until He proves Himself. There is nothing subtle about this state of mind. It requires a conscious, willful, stubborn refusal to trust and believe in Jesus until He proves Himself. For one I myself refuse to believe that this outrageous, sinful state of mind describes the heart of a true believer. Here's what she wrote: quote:
The nobleman wanted to see [italicized emphasis is original] the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn. Not because we see or feel that God hears us are we to believe. We are to trust in His promises. When we come to Him in faith, every petition enters the heart of God. When we have asked for His blessing, we should believe that we receive it, and thank Him that we have received it. Then we are to go about our duties, assured that the blessing will be realized when we need it most.
I think she's right! This is a lesson we need to learn. I think a problem may be that you are interpreting this as dealing with salvation. But that's not the context. It's talking about asking Jesus for a temporal blessing. This is something born again people do. But just because a born again person asks for a temporal blessing, does not mean that that person's faith is perfect. It's still possible that such a one needs to learn the lesson of trusting Jesus more fully. That's why it's a lesson we need to learn. Even Ellen White. She spoke of how her experiences of doubt in prayer. She never claimed to be perfect, even though she was born again.
I'm sorry you disagree with my feelings about this kind of distrust and disbelief, but there is no way you can persuade me to believe Sister White, or any other truly born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus (think about it – who is abiding in Jesus), can be innocently guilty of blatantly refusing to trust and belief in Jesus until He proves Himself by answering their self-centered, self-serving prayer requests.
This is to bad. It puts on in the danger I outlined previously. Any advice or warnings God has are written off as not applicable. Take this eye salve so you can see. Don't need it. I see fine.
Not even your Laodicean can be guilty of such a sin. Laodiceans would consider it unspeakably blasphemous to willfully refuse to trust or believe in Jesus. They are too busy feeling like everything is kosher between them and Jesus. They are not guilty of refusing to believe in Jesus. No way.
You need to distinguish between believing in Jesus in a salvific sense and asking Him for a termporal blessing. She was speaking of the latter in DA.
Instead they are guilty of taking Him for granted. They expect Him to answer their prayers. True, they are deceived, but they do not know it. On the outside they appear to be true, trusting, faithful, loyal believers.
The pronoun you are uses betrays exactly the danger I am speaking of. The Laodecian message is a message for us. All of us. We are deceived, but do not know it.
Have you ever read any of EGW's correspodence regarding Jones and Waggoner or their messages? These points I'm making here are not original to me. The presenters of the message the prophet called "the message of God to the Laodecian church" made these points.
If we deny we need help, and the Lord send us help, how can we be helped?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16988
02/23/06 03:43 AM
02/23/06 03:43 AM
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If you will google this "1893 General Conference Bulletin" the very first response will be the sermons of A. T. Jones from the 1893 General Conference Bulliten as a pdf. In Sermon #8 he preaches on the Laodecean message. Actually he preaches quite a few sermons on it. In Sermon #8 he said: quote:
Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent and there will be no lack of repentance. That next verse will be fulfilled: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Be zealous therefore and repent."
The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord has told us is the truth. When I know that I am wretched then I know that I need something will satisfy me. And I know that nothing but the Lord can give that, and I depend upon nothing but Him to give it. And if I have not Him, why it is only wretchedness....
Now you say you see. Therefore your sin remaineth. And every moment that I do not see my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to cloth me, why co certain I am ruined, utter ruined, and every moment that I betig to say, "Now I know so much," no, I do not know that at all.
Since it's a pdf and I just have the free version of Adobe Acrobat, I can't copy and paste the contents, but had to retype it. I could type things from it, but that's a bit laborious, so if you could look at this one sermon yourself, that would save some effort on my part.
At any rate, if you will look at this sermon you will see that:
a)He applies the Laodecean message to himself, and all of his listeners
b)He refers to the Spirit of Prophecy as testimony that his interpretation is correct
c)He refers to the Spirit of Prophecy's testimony to the actual message he was presenting as evidence that the message he was presenting was correct
I realize c) isn't very clear, so I'll explain. When you and I refer to the Spirit of Prophecy, we say something like "blah, blah, blah" and "Look, the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with me because it says blah, blah, blah." I don't say something like, "Look, here the Spirit of Prophecy endorsed Tom Ewall's interpretation of such and such" since obviously she never endorsed me by name. However, she did endorse him, and he was aware of those endorsements of course, and he quoted those endorsements as he spoke of the Laodecean message.
So not only do we have her endorsements of his message on record, we have his reading of those endorsements on record as a part of a message he was giving, and her endorsements of that (which you can see if you read through her correspondence s of the 1888 message).
At any rate, if one reads through her correspondences, it is easy see that she agreed with what Jones was presenting regarding the church of Laodecea. I'm referring to the 4 volume set the Ellen White estate released regarding 1888.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16989
02/23/06 02:45 PM
02/23/06 02:45 PM
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quote:
It's talking about asking Jesus for a temporal blessing.
Fine. If that's all you hear her saying, then I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with asking Jesus for temporal things like food, water and shelter. If we doubt Jesus He cannot reward our doubt by answering our prayers. Faith and belief are the conditions upon which Jesus can answer our prayers, otherwise, He would be guilty of strengthening doubt and disbelief.
Matthew
21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
James
4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss {i.e., wrongfully}, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.
Proverbs
28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.
ED 257, 258
Prayer and faith are closely allied, and they need to be studied together. In the prayer of faith there is a divine science; it is a science that everyone who would make his lifework a success must understand. Christ says, "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Mark 11:24. He makes it plain that our asking must be according to God's will; we must ask for the things that He has promised, and whatever we receive must be used in doing His will. The conditions met, the promise is unequivocal. {Ed 257.7}
For the pardon of sin, for the Holy Spirit, for a Christlike temper, for wisdom and strength to do His work, for any gift He has promised, we may ask; then we are to believe that we receive, and return thanks to God that we have received. {Ed 258.1}
We need look for no outward evidence of the blessing. The gift is in the promise, and we may go about our work assured that what God has promised He is able to perform, and that the gift, which we already possess, will be realized when we need it most. {Ed 258.2}
TMK 261
In my morning devotions I have regarded it my privilege to close my petition with the prayer that Christ taught to His disciples. There is so much that I really must have to meet the needs of my own case that I sometimes fear that I shall ask amiss; but when in sincerity I offer the model prayer that Christ gave to His disciples I cannot but feel that in these few words all my needs are comprehended. This I offer after I have presented my special private prayer. If with heart and mind and soul I repeat the Lord's prayer, then I can go forth in peace to my work, knowing that I have not asked amiss. . . . {TMK 261.3}
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16990
02/23/06 02:59 PM
02/23/06 02:59 PM
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Tom, do you truly believe the following testimony describes your present experience and relationship with Jesus? Do you really believe it describes Sister White's faith? Do you really believe it describes my faith and relationship with Jesus? quote:
The True Witness says of a cold, lifeless, Christless church, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:15, 16). Mark the following words: "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Here is represented a people who pride themselves in their possession of spiritual knowledge and advantages. But they have not responded to the unmerited blessings that God has bestowed upon them. They have been full of rebellion, ingratitude, and forgetfulness of God; and still He has dealt with them as a loving, forgiving father deals with an ungrateful, wayward son. They have resisted His grace, abused His privileges, slighted His opportunities, and have been satisfied to sink down in contentment, in lamentable ingratitude, hollow formalism, and hypocritical insincerity. With pharisaic pride they have vaunted themselves till it has been said of them, "Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" (verse 17). {FW 83.1}
Has not the Lord Jesus sent message after message of rebuke, of warning, of entreaty, to these self-satisfied ones? Have not His counsels been despised and rejected? Have not His delegated messengers been treated with scorn, and their words been received as idle tales? Christ sees that which man does not see. He sees the sins which, if not repented of, will exhaust the patience of a long-suffering God. Christ cannot take up the names of those who are satisfied in their own self-sufficiency. He cannot importune in behalf of a people who feel no need of His help, who claim to know and possess everything. {FW 83.2}
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16991
02/23/06 04:27 PM
02/23/06 04:27 PM
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Did you read the sermon? The sermon gives the context for my comments. I was only able to quote a couple of things. EGW identified Jones and Waggoners as having "the message of God to the church of Laodecea," and Jones spoke a great deal on the subject. Several of the sermons are discussing it. I think Jones' presentations were spot on.
A thing to notice is that Jones included himself among those being addressed by the Laodecean message (So did Ellen White). Now Jones was certainly born again, as he was being used especially by God to bring us a message. So he, the bringer of the message, believed that the Laodecean message includes born again believers.
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