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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: dedication]
#170159
11/26/14 05:52 AM
11/26/14 05:52 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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We have discussed verses 1 and 2 line by line in the previous posts, now we come to verse three: 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
The locust don't come out of the bottomless pit. They come out of the smoke -- they result from the counterfeit teachings that obstructed Christ the "sun of righteousness". Mohammedanism united the scattered tribes, and sent them forth as the conquerors of nations. When Mohammed first advocated his doctrine, he gained adherents by the power of argument; but this process soon became too slow for his ambition, and arms were taken to defend and extend the territory of the new religion. In the course of a few years, Persia, Syria, Egypt, Africa and Spain had been conquered by Saracen arms. It was in 632 that Caled, the lieutenant of the first caliph, began the conquest of Persia. His efforts were crowned with victory. To every man was offered death, or the acceptance of the Mohammedan doctrine. With the sword above their heads, multitudes thanked God for Mohammed, His prophet. Like a horde of locusts they swept across the middle east, through Egypt, across Northern Africa and up into Spain and even threatening France. Unlike the Christian apostles who swiftly carried the gospel all over the known world by the Power of the Holy Spirit. The Mohammedans swiftly carried their religion by the power of conquest and the sword. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; The caliph Abubeker instructed the chiefs of the army as follows: "When you fight the battles of the Lord, acquit yourselves like men, without turning your backs; but let not your victory be stained with the blood of women or children. Destroy no palm trees, nor burn any fields of corn. Cut down no fruit trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: dedication]
#170188
11/27/14 04:41 AM
11/27/14 04:41 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Continuing verse 4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. God plans from eternity; and while Satan worked hard for the utter destruction of all things, yet the guiding hand of Jehovah still controlled. Apostolic Christians were not considered "an enemy" at first by the Muslims. Many Christians had fled from the persecutions of the Eastern Christian regime, and found sanctuary in desolate places as well as in the lands of the Arabs. Many welcomed the Saracens at first since they had been oppressed under Catholic religion. The Muslim warriors were told to "let them alone". But this was not the case with monks who wore the tonsure or the rest of the Catholic world. It would seem that God put a spirit of gentleness into the hearts of these warriors toward those Christians, who, in the solitudes of Syria, were keeping the law of God; but the tonsured priests and monks were to be slain without mercy, unless they accepted the faith of Mohammed and paid tribute. Later, after the first crusade, things would change as the Muslims would then consider all Christians in a negative light
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: dedication]
#170201
11/28/14 04:33 AM
11/28/14 04:33 AM
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9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he strikes a man. 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. When we look at Daniel 7 we see a key word "dominion". Mankind seeks to exert dominion over others, and when that dominion comes with the sword and violence it indeed is oppressive -- a torment. Nations arise and lay waste to the homes and cities of the former nation so that they can have take over the dominion. When this is linked with religion it becomes even more frightful for not only are the temporal lives affected but the dominating power seeks to control the spiritual life as well. In the years previous to the rise of Islam, the Christian powers had claimed just such a dominion over the souls of people, in both the west and in the east, persecution of those who did not bow to legislated doctrines was carried out, and now God allowed another religious/political power to rise up against the Christianity of the Roman Empire. In the first "woe" Islam is not allowed to destroy the "Christian" centers of power, only to torment them. The Saracens wanted to have dominion especially over Constantinople the capital of Christianity in the east, and the seat of the eastern Empire. Time after time they attacked and besieged the city, usually overrunning the neighboring villages in the process. But they never succeeded. Nor was the west exempt. The Muslim armies had conquered northern Africa, entered up into Spain and were advancing into France, when on June 9, 721, at what is now known as the Battle of Toulouse, they were defeated by Charles Martel's army, and their invasion stopped. Many believe this was divine intervention; -- the swarming armies of locusts were not allowed to "kill" the apostate Christian empire. The Saracen's first siege of Constantinople (which lasted seven years) began in the year AD 673, the last attack in AD 823, that's 150 years. The symbolism of the locusts arising from the smoke of false doctrine, while it does depict demonic origin, still relates to literal circumstances in the history of the Christian church. Anyone who studied history knows this was a terrible time for the eastern "Christian" empire. These attacks caused much physical, emotional, and spiritual anguish over the whole empire, removing the joy of living from the people.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#170202
11/28/14 05:06 AM
11/28/14 05:06 AM
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9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. HORSES Here the Revelator explains the locusts -- They were an army of horse men equipped for battle. Arabia is considered to be the home of the horse. A very strong bond is usually formed between rider and horse, much more so than in our culture where horses are driven by whips and spurs. HAIR AND CROWNS These men had long hair and wore turbans upon their heads. The turbans were usually yellow. It was a symbol of their religion -- "Make a point" says their prophet, "of wearing turbans, because it is the way of angels." TEETH AS A LION Ferocious as a lion. In fact Mohammed called his first lieutenant the "lion of god" and his troops as the "lions of god". BREASTPLATES In the Koran it indicates that among God's gifts to the Arabs was their coats of mail. They wore defensive armor when they went into battle. WINGS AS OF MANY HORSES RUNNING Arabian horses gracefully running at full speed. Several thousand would make quite a sight and sound.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#170203
11/28/14 05:49 AM
11/28/14 05:49 AM
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9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And in their tails is their power (literally, 'authority': (authorized power) to hurt." The prophets teaching false doctrines are referred to as the "tail" in Isa 9:15 The teachings they had embraced were driving them on to "sting" and hurt. This was their authority vindicating and prompting them. Five months = 150 years - AD 673 to AD 823 (see verse 5 post) 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit
, Actually they didn't have a human king or centralized government, it was their religion that gave them unity and sent them on their mission of destruction. Long after their prophet was gone, the angel that had given him the dictates of the new religion was still guiding his followers (the locusts) that came out of the (smoke) of the false doctrine. In all of this we see the spiritual battle. Two religions fighting for dominion over the souls of people. The beast receives his authority from the dragon. The locusts received their authority from the "tail" and were guided by the angel of the bottomless pit. You may think this has no relevance for our time in the "last days" but this battle is not yet over -- there will be one last great battle to achieve dominion over the souls of people. But remember, -- Christ has won the rights to that dominion. And in the end He will deliver His people.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#170205
11/28/14 12:58 PM
11/28/14 12:58 PM
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OP
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Thanks, Dedication for your effort to expound as detailed in the above. I say that the Seven Trumpets have an apparent correlation to the Seven Plagues rather than to the Seven Seals. dedication
1st seal White Horse 1st trumpet Destruction Jerusalem
Gospel goes forth Gospel rejected
2nd seal Red Horse 2nd trumpet Rome Falls
Persecution by Rome
3rd seal Black Horse 3rd trumpet star falls (apostasy
Compromising doctrines 1/3 waters wormwood
4th seal Pale Horse 4th trumpet darkened light
Deadly doctrines
5th seal many martyrs 5th trumpet warlike locusts
Reformation distract papacy
6th seal signs in sun moon 6th trumpet army of horsemen
stars the Turks kill 1/3 people [b]apparent correlation[/b]
Seven Trumpets Seven Plagues
(1st)Upon the earth Upon the earth
(2nd)Upon the sea Upon the sea
(3rd)Upon the fresh water Upon the fresh water
(4th)Upon the heavenly bodies Upon the sun
(5th)Upon the star that fell from heaven Upon the seat of the beast
(6th)Warnings for the three identities Plagues upon the three identities
(fire, smoke, brimstone) (dragon, beast, false prophets)
(7th)Now become the kingdom of God It is done Psalm 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?" The Book of Revelation should be interpreted by the sanctuary plan not by the history of the world. It seems that the historical approach is trying to measure the heaven with the span of our hand, which is non measurable. The introductory vision for the Seven Trumpets portrays that Jesus is ministering in the heavenly court which is the true tabernacle, the Lord pitched, not man (Heb 8:2). While Jesus is ministering in the heavenly court, the seven angels STOOD BEFORE GOD with the seven trumpets in their hands (Rev 8:2), which indicate the their readiness to blow the trumpet sounds at the order of God command. Jesus took the censer and casted it into the earth ( Rev 8:5), which depicts that the close of probation. Then the verse six said, "the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." The commission to the seven angels is carried out then in their full blast of the seven trumpets. Remember that the Seven Trumpets have the introductory vision, which is the assurance of Jesus' intercession in the heavenly court while the Seven Trumpets blow its warning sound. The description of the Seven Trumpets is appeared as though they come after the close of the probation but they are only foretelling what are the Seven Plagues after the probation ends. I believe that's why the correlation between the 7 trumpets and 7 plagues has the obvious manifestation in the comparison. Jesus Christ is SIGNIFIED in each vision to John in the Book of Revelation. The visions take place in earth or in heaven in the development. The details of the revelation pertain to effects or events that are taking place on earth or heaven as a result-of and corresponding-to the previous events that took place. This in mind, the silence in heaven (Rev 8:1) indicates that the judgment of God is completed in response to the prayers of God’s people (Rev 8:3-5). dedication
7th seal silence
heaven empty
Christ coming What has signified in the silence is not that we need to know that the heaven is empty. But the silence portrays that the judgment of God is completed. There is no one in the throne room in heaven voices an objection in the salvation of men. The final sealing in earth is done in Chap. Seven. The heaven is in ominous hush in anticipation of God’s next order. Surly it is a calm before the storm, which is coming in the Seven Plagues. Who would want to blow the Seven Trumpets of warning sound to the world? I believe that the message of the seven trumpets is the commission to the sealed people of God to prepare the final event of the Second Coming of Jesus.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#170237
11/29/14 06:52 AM
11/29/14 06:52 AM
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Karen wrote: I believe that the message of the seven trumpets is the commission to the sealed people of God to prepare the final event of the Second Coming of Jesus.
Once the sealing is complete it's too late to prepare for the Second Coming. We must do that before the sealing is complete -- it's a prerequisite to being sealed.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#170249
11/29/14 09:23 PM
11/29/14 09:23 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Karen wrote: "The Book of Revelation should be interpreted by the sanctuary plan not by the history of the world."
I fully agree the book of Revelation should be interpreted by the sanctuary plan.
However, the sanctuary plan deals with the world and it's history. The events listed in the seven trumpets are things that happen on earth, not in heaven.
The first half of Revelation (1-11) focuses mainly on Christ's work in the holy place and corresponds this with events happening on earth. (With leads at the end of each sequence introducing the next phase)
The second half of Revelation (13-18) focuses mainly on Christ's work in the Most Holy Place and corresponds this with events happening on earth. (With introductory leads pointing to the next phase)
The last three chapters (19-21)deal with the execution of judgment upon the world and the restoration of all things.
The Holy Place has three pieces of furniture
Churches -- The Lampstand in the holy place
The oil of the Holy Spirit poured out into the church lampstands, and the gospel goes as love for the truth burns brightly. Christ is trimming the lamps so they can burn bright. Here is revealed the history of the Christian church in relationship to the candlesticks. The light grows dim -- the people lose their love for truth and fail to seek the presence of Christ.
THE SEALS In the earthly sanctuary we see a table of showbread in the holy place. This table had two crowns of gold round the top (See Lev. 25:24,25) signifying two thrones, one within the other. In Revelation 5 we see "the Lamb" Christ in the midst of the Father's throne. The seals reflect the showbread ministry. Christ takes the book of the covenant, His sacrifice making Him the only one worthy to do so. He opens the seals and the message of the covenant ratified go out to the world. Now we see the history of the church in relationship with the covenant message. (Christ our Righteousness) The covenant message is darkened and without it there is only "destruction and death". But the last seals point us to Christ and his covenant promises will come to pass!
THE TRUMPETS
The third piece of furniture in the Holy Place is the Altar of Incense and that is where we find Christ standing as the trumpets are introduced.
The Trumpets deal with Christ's ministry at the altar of incense in the holy Place. The incense not only signifies the prayers of saints, it signifies Christ's merits on our behalf rising up before the Father shielding us from the just retribution we as sinners, deserve.
Then we see the history of the world in relationship to the altar of incense. We see two "stars" -- powerful leaders of religious/political movements both claiming to serve the true God, yet each trying to force people to believe they have the answers to spiritual questions and a human controlled gate to heaven.
Roman priests carry incense and use them as they approach the altar for the mass. Muslims burn incense to obtain merit and so the "angels and spirits will hear" them. Though it's not obligatory for them.
The trumpets show the battle of these two major religions seeking to control the lives and souls or the people. Two major confrontations have already occurred (5th and 6th woe) the third one (also described in Daniel 11:40-45) is right upon us. It takes place after the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen -- meaning it takes place while Christ is in the Most Holy Place--
The battle will be intense as both seek the dominion, the papal "king" will come out on top and it will SEEM like he has all the answers for world peace, and to oppose him will place that person in the vilest of contempt.
Indeed -- we must keep our minds filled with the sanctuary truth for the counterfeit will rise to awesome strength of deceptive "answers" to humanities needs.
But the seventh trumpet makes it clear who the real winner will be. Christ obtains the dominion! And all heaven rejoices! He will deliver his people.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: dedication]
#170253
11/29/14 11:52 PM
11/29/14 11:52 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Once the sealing is complete it's too late to prepare for the Second Coming. We must do that before the sealing is complete -- it's a prerequisite to being sealed. Isa. 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: dedication]
#170254
11/30/14 01:01 AM
11/30/14 01:01 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Fifth trumpet: The three woes speak of another religious/political group claiming to worship the same God but also being a counterfeit – namely Islam. Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an eagle flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" What does eagle signify for the three woes? Do you read that the three woes pertain 'to the inhabiters of the earth' rather than to the 'namely Islam'? Rev 12:12 "…Woe to the inhabiters of the earth'…for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Bible interpretes itself. The same phrases should be interpreted as same as we read in the Book of Revelation. The inhabiters of the earth mean the global involvement, not only Islam. The three woes are urgent messages, more so than the first four trumpets, because it comes in the last three trumpets impacting the whole world. In Revelation 12, it says there was a woman who had twelve stars above her head. These stars represented the leadership of the church. (12 apostles, some say the 12 patriarchs)
posted by Dedication Stars may represent leadership in the Bible. However, the fallen star (Rev 9:1) represents the Devil. Luke 10:18 "and he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven". So a star is a religious leader – possibly even the founder (as the twelve stars of Rev. 12) of a religious movement. A falling star tends to imply this leader is looked to for truth and has a measure of heavenly truth, but is fallen in grave error.
Thus a falling star fittingly represents the papacy in the first reference, and Mohammed in the second reference. Both are looked to as divine guides of truth in their respective group. posted by Dedication The fallen star works through the papacy which indicated by a 'beast ascends out of the bottomless pit(Rev 11:7 and 17:8) but the Satan has the bottomless key to open. Of course, satan is chief fallen star behind all these counterfeit movements.
posted by Dedication Yes, we can not interprete the fifth trumpet(the first woe) as the Islamic movements but it is about the demonic activities. That's why it is the urgent message and an eagle flying in the midst of heaven. The application should be to the whole world; the inhabiters of the earth.
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