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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170064
11/21/14 10:09 PM
11/21/14 10:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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The following passages describes in detail the "fleshly lusts which war against the soul"

Quote:
There are many who would receive the truths of God's word, their judgment having been convinced by the clearest evidence; but the carnal desires, clamoring for gratification, control the intellect, and they reject truth because it conflicts with their lustful desires. The minds of many take so low a level that God cannot work either for them or with them. The current of their thoughts must be changed, their moral sensibilities must be aroused, before they can feel the claims of God. {CTBH 9.2}

Pride and fashion hold men and women in the veriest slavery to customs which are fatal to health and even to life itself. The appetites and passions, clamoring for indulgence, trample reason and conscience underfoot. This is the cruel work of Satan, and he is constantly putting forth the most determined efforts to strengthen the chains by which he has bound his victims. Those who have been all their lives indulging wrong habits do not always realize the necessity of a change. And many will persist in gratifying their desire for sinful pleasure at any cost. Let the conscience be aroused and much is gained. Nothing but the grace of God can convict and convert the heart; here alone can the slaves of custom obtain power to break the shackles which bind them. The self-indulgent must be led to see and feel that a great moral renovation is necessary if they would meet the claims of the divine law; the soul-temple has been defiled, and God calls upon them to arouse and strive with all their might to win back the God-given manhood which has been sacrificed through sinful indulgence. {4T 552.2}

When burdened, when pressed with temptation, when the feelings and desires of the natural heart are clamoring for the victory, earnest, fervent, importunate prayer in the name of Christ brings Jesus to your side as a helper, and through His name you gain the victory and Satan is vanquished. {OHC 25.2}

Divine truth can make little impression upon the intellect while the customs and habits are opposed to its principles. Those who are willing to inform themselves concerning the effect of sinful indulgence upon the health, and who commence the work of reform, even if it be from selfish motives, in so doing place themselves where the truth of God may find access to their hearts. And, on the other hand, those who are reached by the presentation of Scripture truth are then in a position where their consciences will be aroused upon the subject of health. They see and feel the necessity of breaking away from the tyrannizing habits and appetites which have ruled them so long. There are many who would receive the truths of God's word, their judgment having been convinced by the clearest evidence; but the carnal desires, clamoring for gratification, control the intellect, and they reject truth as falsehood, because it comes in collision with their lustful affections. {4T 553.1}

Satan will lead them on from step to step, as it were blindfolded, and with his suggestions will, as they advance, stir up the human passions to depravity which will prove their eternal ruin. There is already developing a strong inclination to that which is evil and destructive in its manifestation. Appetites and passions are clamoring for indulgence and gratification. Reason and conscience remonstrated at every step for a time, but the voice of Satan is heard presenting worldly lusts in attractive garments, and sin becomes attractive. They depart farther from the counsel of God and the authoritative voice speaking from His Word. These youth need to pray, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." {20MR 52.4}

Believers abiding in Jesus are not fleshly lusts. It is "the flesh [that] lusteth against the Spirit" - not believers abiding in Jesus. "To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. "No man can serve two masters." If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" {LHU 144.4}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170070
11/22/14 08:10 PM
11/22/14 08:10 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
While some here see sin as a disease of the body, Ellen White says clearly that sin is a disease of the soul.

Sin not only shuts us away from God, but destroys in the human soul both the desire and the capacity for knowing Him. ... The faculties of the soul, paralyzed by sin, the darkened mind, the perverted will, He [Christ] has power to invigorate and to restore. He opens to us the riches of the universe, and by Him the power to discern and to appropriate these treasures is imparted. {RC 106.4}

I present these testimonies now as a solemn duty I owe to the Master, whose servant I am, to see if your eye-sight is so darkened that you cannot understand them. Blindness of the heart is a terrible barrier to the discerning of truth. "He shall take of mine and shall show it unto you," is the declaration of Christ, revealing how the Holy Spirit operates upon the mind. Sin is the disease of the soul, in consequence of which the understanding fails to do its appointed work on the heart and memory. For many years I have met this more or less in my experience. When the soul is brought into close relationship with the great Author of light and truth, impressions are made upon it revealing its true position before God. Then self will die, pride will be laid low, and Christ will draw his own image in deeper lines upon the soul. {PH028 6.1, 7.1}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170071
11/22/14 08:24 PM
11/22/14 08:24 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Is there a soul without the body? A lot of Christians think so!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170073
11/22/14 09:58 PM
11/22/14 09:58 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
No, but there is a distinction between soul and body. The soul is not the body, and the body is not the soul. And Ellen White didn't say that sin is a disease of the body.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #170078
11/23/14 03:34 AM
11/23/14 03:34 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
No, but there is a distinction between soul and body. The soul is not the body, and the body is not the soul. And Ellen White didn't say that sin is a disease of the body.
There is no soul without the body. Sure, your isolated quote, it says that sin is a disease of the soul. But put that with other quotations, such as when she say, "Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost," of the Bible, Galatians 2:16 "...and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Where do diseases of the body come from is they do not come from sin? The answer is that diseases of the body do come from sin! Sin and disease bear to each other the relationship of cause and effect.--T., No. 32, p. 200. {HL 60.1}

A very serious objection to the practice of meat eating is found in the fact that disease is becoming more and more widespread among the animal creation. The curse because of sin causes the earth to groan under the inhabitants thereof, and every living thing is subject to disease and death. Cancers, tumors, diseases of the lungs, the liver, the kidneys, all exist among the animals that are used for food. {7MR 421.1}

Disease in the animal creation is caused by sin. Can you explain how that happens?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170080
11/23/14 01:34 PM
11/23/14 01:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Body + Breath of Life = a living soul. A soul is what we are, not what we have. That's state of the dead 101. Nevertheless, the words soul and spirit are commonly used in reference to the essence of man - the character, the personality, the temperament. All of which is soiled by sin and sinning, by inheritance and cultivation.

But rebirth restores to man the original lovliness, the true glory and dignity. A new nature, a new mind, a new heart, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies are supernaturally imparted. They partake of the divine nature and thereby grow in grace, mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day.

Quote:
The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12. {DA 466.5}

The service rendered in sincerity of heart has great recompense. "Thy Father which seeth in secret Himself shall reward thee openly." By the life we live through the grace of Christ the character is formed. The original loveliness begins to be restored to the soul. The attributes of the character of Christ are imparted, and the image of the Divine begins to shine forth. The faces of men and women who walk and work with God express the peace of heaven. They are surrounded with the atmosphere of heaven. For these souls the kingdom of God has begun. They have Christ's joy, the joy of being a blessing to humanity. They have the honor of being accepted for the Master's use; they are trusted to do His work in His name. {DA 312.2}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #170087
11/23/14 09:58 PM
11/23/14 09:58 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
There is no soul without the body. Sure, your isolated quote, it says that sin is a disease of the soul. But put that with other quotations... Where do diseases of the body come from is they do not come from sin?

"Soul" here refers to the spiritual aspect of man. The disease of sin is in his spiritual nature, not in his physical nature. Of course sin affects the whole being, including the body, but the origin of sin is in the soul, not in the body.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170088
11/23/14 10:01 PM
11/23/14 10:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
But rebirth restores to man the original lovliness, the true glory and dignity.

However, this restoration is gradual, not instantaneous.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #170090
11/24/14 12:25 AM
11/24/14 12:25 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
There is no soul without the body. Sure, your isolated quote, it says that sin is a disease of the soul. But put that with other quotations... Where do diseases of the body come from is they do not come from sin?

"Soul" here refers to the spiritual aspect of man. The disease of sin is in his spiritual nature, not in his physical nature. Of course sin affects the whole being, including the body, but the origin of sin is in the soul, not in the body.

What was the original sin - according to the Bible? In the day you THINK about eating the fruit, or in the day you EAT? Which is it? What does EGW say?

If as you say, sin affects the body, PLEASE, tell me how that happens? And tell me how sin causes disease in the animal creation? Do the animals have a spiritual/soul problem too?

Where does the "soul" reside? In nothingness? NO. Where do "carnal lusts" come from? The soul? HINT: see {AH 127.2} Are we to crucify the soul or the flesh?

Bonus question: Did Christ have a spiritual body after His resurrection? He had a spiritual body, yet He was a real, literal being. Spiritual things are not imaginary things. Indeed, that which is spiritual is more real than that which is fleshly, because only that which is spiritual will endure for ever.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #170098
11/24/14 02:37 PM
11/24/14 02:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: But rebirth restores to man the original lovliness, the true glory and dignity.

R: However, this restoration is gradual, not instantaneous.

Jesus demonstrated the gradual process as He "perfected holiness" from childhood to manhood. Jesus implants the new nature, the new mind, the new heart, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies the instant newborn babes experience rebirth. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. It is miraculously radical.

Quote:
Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Romans 8:7; Matthew 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}

There is nothing gradual about it. "All things are become new." People who experience rebirth in "God's appointed way" (as opposed to those who do not) are born again "perfect and complete in all the will of God". They begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. And, like Jesus, they mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit "perfecting holiness" more and more.

Quote:
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.

What is the source of internal temptations in the cases of people who have been born again in God's appointed way, in whom Jesus has implanted a new nature, a new mind, a new heart, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies?

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