Dedication wrote: And the prophecy will be fulfilled again in completeness, when the NEW Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and all the saved nations will go to that great city to worship and learn more about God.


As Revelation points out concerning the NEW Jerusalem --

Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."

GLL writes: Now, let me understand this. You say that Isaiah's prediction will be fulfilled in this “New Jerusalem” time. You mean that when the New Jerusalem comes down there will be existing nations that will come up to Zion? The city descends upon an inhabited world?

MY ANSWER:
No, I'm not saying that the earth was inhabited DURING the 1000 years.

Scripture says in speaking of the NEW JERUSALEM COME DOWN
Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."

Are you saying John the Revelator is saying the earth was inhabited during the 1000 years?

And yes, in the New Earth the saved from every nation, tribe and tongue will inhabit the earth. They will gladly come to the New Jerusalem to worship God and learn more about salvation.
The study of God's salvation will be looked into by the saints for eternity -- we don't half understand it now.

There is nothing foolish in Johns depiction of all the nations of the saved coming to Jerusalem.

All nations --- ALL --
That will never happen before Christ's coming -- all nations aren't going to flowing into old Jerusalem to learn truth, for Revelation makes it plain the nations and kings will be fighting against God right up to the time Christ appears in the clouds of glory with the "armies" of heaven.

They want their own version of a kingdom -- they are fighting against Christ and His kingdom.

As to the quote in Isaiah 2

There are "if" and the context.

Isaiah 1:18-20 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Then in the next chapter



So IF they would have been willing during the 490 years to cleanse their lives and prepare for the coming of the Messiah, and accept HIM -- then yes, their city would have been the light to world to which nations would come to find truth.

But they didn't -- and so war continues.

And Revelation shows us that in the last days the nations have NOT turned their instruments of war into peaceful utensils.

For:
Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb,
Rev. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle
Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Dedication-It matters not that it isn't joining a local government. Their aim is to set up a KINGDOM in which rulership and religion is merged.

GLL: Ok, let's use Dedications logic here. So in king David's and Solomon's time where rulership and religion was formed together, was that a uniting of “church-state” ? Or was that what is known as a pure “Theocracy”?

MY ANSWER:
It was the uniting of church and state, it was not God's original plan, -- and it was NOT a pure theocracy. Solomon led the Israelites into idolatry with all his heathen wives. Most of Isreal's kings were trouble as far as serving the Lord in purity and truth was concerned.


Dedication wrote- They don't plan on joining a local government they plan to BE the local government. What do you think a kingdom and a king does? A king that rules on throne.

GLL wrote: The word “government” is not exclusive to a heathen rulership. Governments can exist such as Saul, David, and Solomon's time. No heathen connection at all. You are limiting the word government.

MY ANSWER:
Government can be "heathen" or "religious" -- actually it's the religious governments that can be the most dangerous to people who seek to follow God according to their conscience. The last day "theocracy" predicted in Revelation, will be very religious, getting the whole world to worship the dragon, the beast and his image, but it will be persecuting and killing God's true people.

The problem lies in thinking one is following God, when in reality following an other spirit. There is absolutely no guarantee that the so called antitypical David who assumes kingship authority is in connection with the right spirit.

in fact -- anyone assuming that kind of authority is over stepping their place.

Lean not on the arm of flesh -- is especially true as we face all the delusions of Satan in the last days as he makes his last desperate attempt to have the whole world worshipping him.

GLL -- Again saying VTH mentioned no dates-----

You sure love to ride that accusation don't you --
Yet, you are falsely accusing me.
Nowhere have I said that Houteff set the date. == NO WHERE.


What I did write was from the Symbolic Code #11
Which is now no where to be found on the internet, though I searched for considerable time.

In that code it was written that
Houteff "expressed the definite conviction that the time prophecy of Revelation 11:2-12 and Daniel 12:6,7 could have met their fulfillment only in type from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and that they have a latter-day fulfillment. "-The Symbolic Code, vol. 11, no. 1, p. 3

According to this he expressed the 538-1798 was a type of something yet future. Upon this Florence and her council decided on a date. They set the date, not V. Houteff.

I still think he very well could have called that time period a "type" and I went into considerable trouble showing you that Houteff used the 1260 as a type in another study. (again not mentioning any dates, -- but still using them as a type of something yet future)

As I said -- all you can prove is that V. Houteff did not mention any dates -- and I never said he set a date.
So your riding this horse to try and prove I'm spreading some kind of falsehood is your "bearing false witness" not mine.

GLL wrote:

No one is “pushing aside” EGW. Our subject is the pre-mil kingdom and the very first quote you use to deny that was a taken out of context EGW quote."

--The quote was NOT out of context -- it is very applicable to the situation under study.
The principle stated in that quote is applicable today!




Sure the situation was somewhat different when she wrote this -- The supposition then being pushed by some Adventists (former associates of SDA pioneers during the Millerite movement) promoting a message that was to get people to go over to Jerusalem and start tilling the soil "showing God's favor had returned to the land" and start converting some Jews, so there would be a community there - a remnant, to welcome the coming of the Messiah when He returned to His capital city.

However the sentence:
"some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes"

Do Houteff's teachings believe it is the duty of God's people to go to Old Jerusalem because they have a work to do there before the Lord comes?

If GLL is honest he will say "yes" -- for that is what is being taught by SR that the "true" Adventists need to go to Jerusalem at some point, and then the last message is to go out from old Jerusalem.

How about two other sentences --
"I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish."

The SR think the time has not come to share the gospel news and the soon coming of the Lord with people all around them. They believe their mission is to convince Seventh-day Adventists on the "kingdom in Jerusalem" message, and if they don't believe that they have to be slaughtered first, before the message can go to the rest of the world.

Jesus has commissioned us to bring the message of the gospel to the world. Of course we are to share with church members as well. Of course we need to teach repentance and recommitment to more fervent love to Christ and the truth and rise above the "lukewarm" condition and be on fire for the Lord, but that includes, not blocks the witnessing to all around us. The time to take the message to the world is NOW.

There won't be any sweet, safe Kingdom sometime in the future to finally start sharing the gospel with others.

And how about the sentence:
"I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up;"

Houteff writes it off as EGW talking about some movement not building up Jerusalem --
saying she didn't understand, etc. etc.

What part of NEVER do they not understand?
God showed her Jerusalem would NEVER be built up.
God doesn't give us truth and then turn around and uproot it for something else.

Now there is a lot of building going on over there. Jews have returned to their homeland -- so what did God show her?
It seems plenty clear that she was referring to OLD JERUSALEM will never be built up as the "city of God".

The bulk of writings are clear --
Old Jerusalem is NOT to be rebuilt as God's city --
It may well be rebuilt to fill a counterfeit role, but NEVER as God's city.

We are to look to the heavenly Jerusalem.
The promises of the inheritance will be fulfilled in NEW JERUSALEM!

You will notice in Revelation there are only TWO cities that get written on people's foreheads.

The counterfeit city of Babylon that is bound for destruction
OR
The heavenly city -- God's city-- The New Jerusalem!

Revelation 3:12 "I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God"

" the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name." EGW Daystar Jan. 1846

That's the city we long to be citizens of -- the New Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Gal 4:25;.Jerusalem which now is, is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Many, many people in this world will be deceived by the "old Jerusalem" kingdom theories that abound in various forms in many different belief systems,

DedYou said I gave no reference when I showed Houteff's presentation of the tree where the antitypical David who is to be king was said not to be Christ -- when there was reference -- tract and page number. (Tract #8) Taken right from his writings!!!!

Can you post where I said these things? Show us this.

Ded-The case of Florence is a sad one indeed.

Yes, and we know that Christ said that we shall be guided into ALL truth (John 16:13) so obviously the spirit that was guiding her was not the Lord! Else why would she deny sister White as inspired? Interestingly she later married a man, who we as present truth believers believe, was a sign from the Lord, whose last name was --AIKEN (pronounced as ACHAN). Does that ring a bell? (Joshua 7:13-24)

Bottom line --- her validation of denying brother Houteff's message means --nothing.

Ded- I said I had read quite a lot of Houteff's writings and even gave titles of his pamphlets. It was you that twisted that into saying I hadn't read much!!!

Well now , a little passionate about being short in studying the Rod? Listen brother Houteff runs circles around you and yet you claim to know what he wrote. Here's how we know you are not right. Notice in the many writings of Houteff, you have never ONCE admitted that he brought light to the Scriptures. This can only mean that you have an agenda and that is to counter the Lord's last day prophet -- the Elijah to come, of whom you weakly say "Oh there is no Elijah to come" or even worse--"Oh that was Ellen White" lol. Continue on sister , I shall watch for each and every foolish word and comments you write, and expose it as Christ exposed the Pharisees!

The Truth shall stand and your twisting and lack of knowledge will not stand. I say this sadly.


Look forward to exposing your comments on the other posts as soon as time allows.

I know Houteff did not write the Bible verses, that's not the issue.

It appears YOU THINK the Rod IS Houteff?
But just because he took that name upon himself does not mean it is true.

Houteff claims:
Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9.

So here we see Houteff's claim that he is the only "Rod" that has ever spoken, and that those verses pertain to him.

But that doesn't make it so.


I'm sure when the Psalmist penned the following words --he did not have Houteff in mind.
"The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want...
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" (Psalm 23)


The shepherd's (and Moses was once a shepherd as well) rod is about 3' long. It can be used as a club to defend the sheep against wild animals that would come to kill, steal and destroy his sheep. But it is also used to comfort and guide the sheep.
The words "sheep", "lamb" and "shepherd" appear over 600 times in the Bible


The rod is is usually made out of fallen timhers from a tree that the shepherd peels and makes smooth; it becomes a ready weapon against any attacker.
The shepherd's rod is very helpful, enabling the shepherd to pull away branches or thorn bushes so that the sheep can safely walk on the path as the shepherd leads.

The shepherd can use his staff to pull out little lambs or sheep who have wondered off the path to a hard to reach place, or to rescue lambs and sheep who have fallen into a hole. The sheep do notice the sheperd's power and strength and this gives "comfort" to the sheep.

The "ROD" is actially the Word of God.
It is God's Word that speaks with power,and strength, it rescues us from all kinds of danger. The "STAFF" is the Holy Spirit who guides us along the path that The Good Shepherd leads us on. The Holy Spirit comforts us and draws us closer to the Son of God, Jesus Christ. It is in His presence that we experience peace and joy.

Whatever you are going through right now, you are not alone. Say with the Psalmist:


"I WILL FEAR NO EVIL, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME;

YOUR ROD AND YOUR STAFF, THEY COMFORT ME."

Ded-It appears YOU THINK the Rod IS Houteff?
But just because he took that name upon himself does not mean it is true.

LOL, get real. How many times do I have to tell you to know your history? Brother Houteff began to write the Shepherd's Rod (volume one) BEFORE he even knew that Micah 6:9 existed! Wake up! Your knowledge is exposed before God.

Ded- I'm sure when the Psalmist penned the following words --he did not have Houteff in mind.
"The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want...
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" (Psalm 23)

Ofcourse this is separate of Micah 6:9. Just because the word "rod" is used you cannot assume they mean as one. LOL this is funny!

Ded- Houteff claims:
Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9.

So here we see Houteff's claim that he is the only "Rod" that has ever spoken, and that those verses pertain to him.

God spoke that a "rod" would speak, Houteff began the SRod volumes even before knowing that the Micah 6:9 existed. Learn your history.

Ded- The "ROD" is actially the Word of God.
It is God's Word that speaks with power,and strength, it rescues us from all kinds of danger.

Finally you have said the truth. Yes the Lord's Rod is God's word. Infact He is called the Shepherd's Rod through out the Scriptures!In fact there is a book written by a Jewish scholar who explains that the word "Shepherd's rod" is written through out the Bible!

Ded-Whatever you are going through right now, you are not alone. Say with the Psalmist:


"I WILL FEAR NO EVIL, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME;

YOUR ROD AND YOUR STAFF, THEY COMFORT ME."

LOL, how about YOU saying those words , to awake you from your ignorance and maybe , just maybe you'll finally humble yourself and say , "you know I did not know that"


"Their questioning is not for the purpose of arriving at truth, but is intended merely to confuse the minds of others. Some have thought it an evidence of intellectual keenness and superiority to perplex minds in regard to what is truth. They resort to subtlety of argument, to playing upon words.."(Test. to Ministers, p.108- 109)

The quote I shared came straight from the first pages (PAGE 6) of Houteff's "the Shepherd's Rod (volume one)" tract edition.
It is a facsimile copy of that book -- obviously a photocopy of the original tract he sent out.

Now GLL is denying that Houteff claimed to be the Rod?????? That he himself never realized the verses (Micah 6:9) existed -- am I supposed to believe that?????


"Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9."(The Shepherd's Rod, Vol. 1 That the First Fruits may stand on Mt. Zion, p. 6)

When he wrote the preface is immaterial the point is -- it is his claim IN PRINT in that original publication. (published in 1945) a good ten years prior to his death.


The Biblical shepherd's Rod is God's Word and His dealings, not Houteff's words or deceptive teachings.

Anyone can claim something -- that does not make it true.
The Biblical references to Rod -- are not about Houteff.

Those words are very precious to me -- for Christ is my Shepherd, and His Words and His Holy Spirit comfort me.

And they most certainly do not refer to Houteff.

Ded- The quote I shared came straight from the first pages (PAGE 6) of Houteff's "the Shepherd's Rod (volume one)" tract edition.

Let's look at what you said--

Ded- Houteff claims:
Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9.

So here we see Houteff's claim that he is the only "Rod" that has ever spoken, and that those verses pertain to him.

First off, brother Houteff is not saying "he" is the rod,lol. That is what YOU say. He is saying that the "Shepherd's Rod" writings are the rod that was prophesied to speak. It would be like us saying that Ellen White is--the Spirit of Prophecy. No, her writings are considered this

Yes I know you don't believe that VTH was the prophesied Elijah to come. It's marked in heaven, don't worry. The recording angel has it all down.

Ded- Those words are very precious to me -- for Christ is my Shepherd, and His Words and His Holy Spirit comfort me.

And they most certainly do not refer to Houteff.

Sadly what shall be found "precious" in the day of the beginning of the judgement for the living upon the SDA church, is what you've mocked and derided.

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." (Mal. 3:2)

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea." (Isaiah 11:11)

Now we can clearly see why, which such doubting, , just as in the days of Korah and the disbelievers in God's prophet (Moses), He had to swallow them up else He would allow such doubters and skeptics to infiltrate His people in coming into the kingdom--so too, He will do so again prior to His people going into His kingdom (Israel) for the final time(prior to the New Earth).