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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #170364
12/03/14 07:28 PM
12/03/14 07:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
A: No, they don't come from the new mind/heart. They come from the old mind/heart. That they clamor so strongly says that the old mind/heart lives. You believe these moral issues emanate from the body. I don't.


The brain is an integral part of the body. The mind is a function of the brain. Thoughts, feelings, character, willpower, personality, temperament, etc are functions of the brain. She says - "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it."

So sin is a malfunction of the brain? And what happened when Adam sinned in a perfect body, with a perfect brain?
Besides, I understand the lower passions are just the physical appetites/impulses. They are not originated in the mind.

The brain works fine. It does exactly what it was designed to do. It channels all the functions listed above. It is how the body and the functions of the mind communicate. Some are instinctive - breath, heart beat, etc. Others are volitional - choice, cognitive, etc. Sinning is choice not instinct. The clamorings of sinful flesh are instinctive.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170396
12/04/14 05:53 PM
12/04/14 05:53 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
The brain works fine.
You have no idea.....


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170409
12/05/14 01:00 PM
12/05/14 01:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Yes, the brain works fine. It is the functions channeled through the brain (see list above), especially the flesh, that act differently than how Jesus originally designed them. The flesh, for instance, no longer harmonizes with the will of God. Now it clamors for sinful expression, it tempts from within to satisfy innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in sinful ways. They begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. The brain is how and where we become conscious of them.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170419
12/05/14 03:54 PM
12/05/14 03:54 PM
K
kland  Offline
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"Yes, the brain works fine."
"They begin as unholy thoughts and feelings."

Huh?

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170422
12/05/14 06:25 PM
12/05/14 06:25 PM
APL  Offline
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MM - the flesh is actual flesh. It appears you do not believe the flesh is the physical flesh. Sigh...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #170428
12/06/14 06:27 AM
12/06/14 06:27 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity.

Originally Posted By: asygo
Do you take this to mean that Jesus was of less moral worth than unfallen Adam?

Originally Posted By: APL
Christ took on Himself, our fallen condition. Amazing, is it not?

Originally Posted By: APL
Perhaps you need to define what you insist I believe, because I sure do not get what you are saying. Christ had a perfect character and never participated in sinful behavior. You are wrong about what I think.

Part of the fallen condition of degenerate humanity is a decreased moral worth, and you think it is amazing that Jesus had the same moral worth. Am I wrong? Don't you believe that?

Either Jesus had the moral worth of degenerate humanity, or He did not. I believe He did not. I think you believe He did. But if you agree with me that Jesus, in His humanity, was morally superior to degenerate humanity, just say so and this confusion will be cleared up.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170435
12/06/14 09:48 AM
12/06/14 09:48 AM
APL  Offline
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asygo - Do you not accept the testimony of Ellen White? Was Christ's physical strength superior to that of unfallen Adam? What about Christ's mental power? Was it superior to unfallen Adam? Here is Ellen's quote which you are struggling with:
Quote:
Satan had pointed to Adam's sin as proof that God's law was unjust, and could not be obeyed. In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam's failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}

Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured.
{DA 117.2}


The fact is that Christ took our fallen nature, and in that nature He overcame for us. And as EGW says, on thus was it possible for Him to rescue us from the lowest depths of degradation. Your problem is not with he, it is what what EGW has written. Do you accept that or not?

Last edited by APL; 12/06/14 09:53 AM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170437
12/06/14 02:36 PM
12/06/14 02:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Arnold, sinful flesh wars against the new mind, the new heart. It seems as though you believe these warring lusts and affections flow from the new mind, the new heart.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The following passages describe in detail the "fleshly lusts which war against the soul"

Quote:
There are many who would receive the truths of God's word, their judgment having been convinced by the clearest evidence; but the carnal desires, clamoring for gratification, control the intellect, and they reject truth because it conflicts with their lustful desires. The minds of many take so low a level that God cannot work either for them or with them. The current of their thoughts must be changed, their moral sensibilities must be aroused, before they can feel the claims of God. {CTBH 9.2}

Pride and fashion hold men and women in the veriest slavery to customs which are fatal to health and even to life itself. The appetites and passions, clamoring for indulgence, trample reason and conscience underfoot. This is the cruel work of Satan, and he is constantly putting forth the most determined efforts to strengthen the chains by which he has bound his victims. Those who have been all their lives indulging wrong habits do not always realize the necessity of a change. And many will persist in gratifying their desire for sinful pleasure at any cost. Let the conscience be aroused and much is gained. Nothing but the grace of God can convict and convert the heart; here alone can the slaves of custom obtain power to break the shackles which bind them. The self-indulgent must be led to see and feel that a great moral renovation is necessary if they would meet the claims of the divine law; the soul-temple has been defiled, and God calls upon them to arouse and strive with all their might to win back the God-given manhood which has been sacrificed through sinful indulgence. {4T 552.2}

When burdened, when pressed with temptation, when the feelings and desires of the natural heart are clamoring for the victory, earnest, fervent, importunate prayer in the name of Christ brings Jesus to your side as a helper, and through His name you gain the victory and Satan is vanquished. {OHC 25.2}

Divine truth can make little impression upon the intellect while the customs and habits are opposed to its principles. Those who are willing to inform themselves concerning the effect of sinful indulgence upon the health, and who commence the work of reform, even if it be from selfish motives, in so doing place themselves where the truth of God may find access to their hearts. And, on the other hand, those who are reached by the presentation of Scripture truth are then in a position where their consciences will be aroused upon the subject of health. They see and feel the necessity of breaking away from the tyrannizing habits and appetites which have ruled them so long. There are many who would receive the truths of God's word, their judgment having been convinced by the clearest evidence; but the carnal desires, clamoring for gratification, control the intellect, and they reject truth as falsehood, because it comes in collision with their lustful affections. {4T 553.1}

Satan will lead them on from step to step, as it were blindfolded, and with his suggestions will, as they advance, stir up the human passions to depravity which will prove their eternal ruin. There is already developing a strong inclination to that which is evil and destructive in its manifestation. Appetites and passions are clamoring for indulgence and gratification. Reason and conscience remonstrated at every step for a time, but the voice of Satan is heard presenting worldly lusts in attractive garments, and sin becomes attractive. They depart farther from the counsel of God and the authoritative voice speaking from His Word. These youth need to pray, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." {20MR 52.4}

"To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. "No man can serve two masters." If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" {LHU 144.4}

NOTE: the promptings of sin = the flesh lusteth against the Spirit. Seems to me you are saying the warring lusts of the flesh is the fruit of abiding in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170438
12/06/14 02:49 PM
12/06/14 02:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Arnold, sinful flesh wars against the new mind, the new heart. It seems as though you believe these warring lusts and affections flow from the new mind, the new heart.

A: No, they don't come from the new mind/heart. They come from the old mind/heart. That they clamor so strongly says that the old mind/heart lives. You believe these moral issues emanate from the body. I don't.

The brain is an integral part of the body. The mind is a function of the brain. Thoughts, feelings, character, willpower, personality, temperament, etc are functions of the brain. She says - "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it."

Again - "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." It tempts, but cannot sin. Sinful flesh tempts in the form of unholy thoughts and feelings - do this, do that without reference to truth or temperance. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. Such thoughts and feelings do not constitute sinning. Nor do they corrupt or contaminate. So long as they are not cherished or acted out in thought, word, or deed there is no harm or foul.

You wrote - "You believe these moral issues emanate from the body." I hope you see the difference. The body is the seat of the soul. The soul is the essence of humans. Sinful flesh has its "seat in the body" and "works through it" to generate and communicate temptations, unholy thoughts and feelings. Sinful flesh is the source of these internally generated temptations - not the body. The body is not sinful flesh. It is the channel through which sinful flesh tempts.

I believe the old man mind, the old man heart dies when people experience rebirth in God's appointed way. Jesus replaces it with the new mind, the new heart. But, as you know, rebirth is rare. Most people do not experience it. They retain many of their cultivated sinful habits and practices. Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

However, just because the old man mind and heart dies it does not mean sinful flesh ceases tempting from within. The old mind, the old heart is not the sinful flesh. They are two different aspects of fallen human nature. The voice of sinful flesh will not be silenced until the day Jesus replaces it with sinless flesh. Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
"The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. {SL 92.2} "There is no release in this warfare; the battle is lifelong . . . . {ML 313.3}

Body and sinful flesh are separate aspects of fallen human nature. People become consciously aware of the clamorings of sinful flesh as unholy thoughts and feelings. These unholy thoughts and feelings do not constitute sinning. They are temptations. When resisted and controlled by a sanctified will and mind, by sanctified reason and conscience the result is righteousness and true holiness. Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
Our natural inclinations and appetites . . . were divinely appointed, and when given to man, were pure and holy. It was God's design that reason should rule the appetites, and that they should minister to our happiness. And when they are regulated and controlled by a sanctified reason, they are holiness unto the Lord. {CG 378.1}

You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. {3T 84.1}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #170439
12/06/14 03:11 PM
12/06/14 03:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
MM - the flesh is actual flesh. It appears you do not believe the flesh is the physical flesh.

By "flesh" do you mean the dust body? "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground". Or, do you mean the breath of life? "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life". Or, do you mean the living soul? "And man became a living soul."

If you mean the dust body, does that mean you believe the dust body is what manufactures sinful "lusts and affections"? "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are . . . they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

If so, how does the dust body generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings?

How do people become consciously aware of them?

If you think "lusts and affections" are generated and communicated by the dust body, do you also think the dust body develops character?

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