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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #170552
12/10/14 08:29 AM
12/10/14 08:29 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Quote:
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. GC 488.

I've suggested before that the most import event in the history of the world next to the life and death of the Jesus Christ is the judgment of the living and as such it will be clearly revealed in scripture prophecy. Where do we find that event in Daniel and Revelation? I believe it's especially in the trumpets and seals, especially in the introductory passages. Those scenes should be "contemplated often" and studied very very carefully.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #170554
12/10/14 10:33 AM
12/10/14 10:33 AM
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I suggested above that the first four trumpets and seals are grouped together and may happen close to each other. I still believe they are sequential though. Here's a couple quotes from Ellen White:

Quote:
The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

My imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1). Thy right hand, O God, shall dash in pieces Thine enemies. Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. [The seven seals.] Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6. [The first six seals.] {15MR 219.2 – 220.1}

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #170571
12/11/14 03:07 AM
12/11/14 03:07 AM
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Thanks for this post bro. Mark. Let us keep in mind that the "seven seals" are descriptions of the seven time periods of God's history whereby each particular generation(s) were to be 'sealed" by that particular "truth" given by the Lord (hence sealed by accepting that truth for their day). EGW and Scripture (Elijah message also) tells us that truth is always advancing and that the Lord works to bring more light to His people as time goes by.

For instance --stoning the sinners was "present truth" for Moses' time. Now we do not dare think this is truth for our time. rather the truth for our time is specifically -- the Elijah message. This is what gets us 'sealed" today--our acceptance of it. should we deny it, we cannot expect the Lord to "seal " us.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #170590
12/12/14 01:14 AM
12/12/14 01:14 AM
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"They had the Bible as we have, but the time for the unfolding of special truth in relation to the closing scenes of this earth's history is during the last generations that shall live upon the earth." (Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 692-693)

"Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God's word." (Christ's Object Lessons, p. 112)

"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not proof that our ideas are infallible." (Advent Review & Sabbath Herald, Dec. 20, 1892)

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland] #170592
12/12/14 01:52 AM
12/12/14 01:52 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: kland

I've been thinking about this, but it says a star from heaven. Not sure how a leader of a church can be from heaven placing it in such context.


How about two major religious movements, both basing their religion on Abraham, who have a lot of truth so it appears to be from heaven, but that is laced with deceptions, and which spirals into darkness.
Both the Catholic and Muslims have considerable truth but it's fallen truth laced with much falsehood.

Think too about Daniel 8 --
8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

The horn (Rome) conquers Carthage in Africa, Asia Minor and Jerusalem. Then it waxed great even to the host of heaven! (But it didn't go to heaven) Through the papacy it took on the prerogatives of heaven -- usurping Christ's role as high Priest.
And they cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground.

How did the "horn" reach up to heaven and cast down the "stars"?

Is this persecuting God's people, or pulling some of God's messengers down into their deception? Anyway the stars here do seem to be church leaders.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #170593
12/12/14 01:57 AM
12/12/14 01:57 AM
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Karen Y  Online Content OP
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The second bowl of the plague indicates that the sea became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea (Rev 16:3). The great mountain in the second trumpet indicates an enormous sabotage that is upon the sea life, which caused the ‘third part of the sea became blood (Rev 8:8). We hear that the Red tide in ocean threatens the sea life these days. The phenomenon occurs with depleted oxygen in the water.
The apparent correlation of the second plague and the trumpet hint the pollution of the sea life, which eventually cause death to men.

I believe that the second trumpet is also the warning of health message for the last generation as well as the first trumpet. The disruption of life on earth and the sea is depicted here.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #170597
12/12/14 05:33 AM
12/12/14 05:33 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

I've suggested before that the most import event in the history of the world next to the life and death of the Jesus Christ is the judgment of the living and as such it will be clearly revealed in scripture prophecy. Where do we find that event in Daniel and Revelation? I believe it's especially in the trumpets and seals, especially in the introductory passages. Those scenes should be "contemplated often" and studied very very carefully.


To understand Christ's heavenly ministry in the sanctuary above is very important.
It's a subject my husband and I have been studying for many years now. The years around the 1970's made it necessary to study this subject diligently as it was being challenged not only from without but in a big way from within the church. It got very close to home as even some of our relatives rejected the sanctuary message and tried to reason us out of it as well.

Prior to this I had read through Revelation and thought our "old" understanding of the seals and trumpets was "strange" as well. But as we had to face the assault on our beliefs and were driven to study the subject more deeply it became ever more clear that the solid foundation for our beliefs lay in the framework delivered to us by the pioneers.
No -- I don't think the pioneers had everything right, but they had the framework. And while the understanding of the sanctuary work of Christ has advanced and become ever more full and thoroughly seen all through scripture, it still rests on the framework.

One of the main opposition points was --
1844 is a myth, a disappointment out of which a group of people dreamed up a theory to save face, and that Christ did not enter the Most Holy in 1844 and start some new work, but Christ entered the Most Holy when He ascended into heaven and that's where He has been ever since.

How are you going to prove that Christ has a two fold ministry?
And why is that important?
Why did Jesus spend 1810 years ministering in the Holy Place if its mainly the "judgment of the living" that is important?

We need to dwell on the whole of Christ's saving work -- His ministry. It's all part of salvation. There can be no "day of atonement" without the previous daily work in the Holy Place.

The churches in Revelation show Christ's work amongst His people -- they are to be the lights through which He shines His message tot he world -- the candlesticks -- symbolic of the Holy Spirit lighting the lives of the God's people. The dangers of that light going out is very real. And it ends with the wonderful message of Christ knocking on our hearts door and that we open wide that door and let Him in to every aspect of our lives and He will give us the gold of faith, the robe of righteousness, the eye salve of discernment.

Next our attention is turned to Christ's work in heaven.

Chapter 4 and 5 show the first door of temple of heaven opened. It leads into the Holy Place. The furniture we see there is Holy Place furniture.
God's throne is symbolized by the table of showbread with it's two crowns, one crown inside the other crown (as you can find in Leviticus) God upon the throne, and Christ-the Lamb in the midst of the throne.
It is the opening of the sanctuary work (not the closing) the book is the book of the covenant with all God's promises, commandments, and dealings.
Christ is authorized to implement the covenant of grace because He was slain and is alive again and has purchased the redemption price.

The trumpets begin with the altar of incense -- the third piece of furniture in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary.
Christ taking our prayers and mixing them with His merits and presenting them before God.

Each of these three sequences has a "change point" when the ministry in the Holy Place ends and the Most Holy Place begins.

The churches -- the sixth church marks the change when a door is shut and another one is opened. (EGW makes direct reference that this is the door to the holy Place being shut and the Most Holy Place opened)

The seals -- how does the Christian world respond to the cleansing fountain opened wide at Calvary? How do they respond to the covenant. The four horses gallop out before the judgment begins and show the Christian world's response to God's covenant. They show not only the progressive history, but also the different forms of Christianity. 1) Those purified in the cleansing fountain of Christ's salvation, 2) persecuted 3) The judgmental, backsliding Christians 4) Total apostasy.
The fifth seal is the call for judgment, the sixth deals with the sealing, first focusing on the unsealed at Christ's coming terrified, while chapter seven deals more directly to the sealing and shows first the last day group sealed, and then all the redeemed before God's throne in the heavenly realms standing on the sea of glass.

The trumpets show the transition most graphically in chapters 10 and 11 and the seventh trumpet.
Chapter 10 which takes place after the sixth trumpet depicts the ending of the long time prophecies, the disappointment and the commission to prophecy again concerning the "measuring of the temple" -- the investigative judgment.
The measuring is the same as in the day of atonement -- of the sanctuary, the altar and the people worshipping within.

The seventh trumpet sounds and another door in the temple is opened and now the ark of the covenant is seen. The 24 elders announce the time has come to judge the dead, and reward the saints and prophets.


Daniel 7 gives a grand picture of the investigative judgment.
The Ancient of Days comes and is seated, Jesus is brought before the heavenly court.

Notice a great difference here between Daniel 7 and Rev. 5.
In Revelation 5 Christ is commissioned and declared worthy to open a book -- to begin the administration of the covenant promises that His blood has ratified and made possible to dispense.

In Daniel 7 Christ is given something quite different -- He is given the kingdom and the dominion. He is the Son of man -- standing at the head of the human race in Adam's place, and receives for mankind the kingdom and dominion that Adam lost.

Back to Revelation we find those who overcome and wash their garments in the blood of the lamb, that fountain opened for the cleansing from sin -- will be heirs along with Christ.
There names will be presented before the Father and the angels.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: dedication] #170600
12/12/14 10:17 AM
12/12/14 10:17 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
It's a subject my husband and I have been studying for many years now. The years around the 1970's made it necessary to study this subject diligently as it was being challenged not only from without but in a big way from within the church. It got very close to home as even some of our relatives rejected the sanctuary message and tried to reason us out of it as well.


I was a young man myself when Dr. Ford challenged us all on the validity of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment. In the mid 80's I went to hear him for myself in Toronto and after his sermon I spoke with him. We spoke candidly for about half an hour and he was very cordial the whole time. He followed up by writing to me a while later. But I was always impressed that he was far from the truth.

The reason for his success with many Adventists is that they were never grounded in scripture in their faith and practice. His arguments were unsound from the start and should have been easily detected as spurious and unscriptural.

I'll have more to post over the Sabbath on where the Judgment of the Living is described in scripture and the writings of Ellen White. Please critique it, Dedication, and any other brothers or sisters. Looking forward to your comments.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #170635
12/14/14 02:47 PM
12/14/14 02:47 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Quote:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven . . . Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: Rev 14:6 and 7.



In all ages, inspiration focuses our attention on the greatest crises to face humanity since time began – judgment day. God through the prophets repeatedly warns and entreats us to turn from our wicked rebellion and be reconciled to him, before the Day of the Lord, before it is forever too late. What I'll say here is not to gratify curiosity regarding the timing of the judgment. It's a plea to seriously consider the signs of the times and given those signs, it's a plea to each of us, myself included, to repent and walk humbly before God as His sons and daughters redeeming the brief time we have left.

Notice below how Ellen White links repentance, confession and humility to judgment day.

Quote:
Those who humble their hearts and confess their sins will be pardoned. Their transgressions will be forgiven. But the man who thinks that should he confess his sins he would show weakness, will not find pardon, will not see Christ as his Redeemer, but will go on and on in transgression, making blunder after blunder and adding sin to sin. What will such a one do in the day that the books are opened and every man is judged according to the things written in the books? {9T 266.2}

The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. . . Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men. They have transgressed the law and broken the everlasting covenant, and they will receive according to their works. {9T 267.1}

Did you catch that? She makes the plea for honesty with God but goes on to apply Revelation 5 to the future when “the books are opened”, “when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men” and “when every man is judged according to the things written in the books”.

What immediately follows the scenes of Revelation 5? The Book is open as each of it's seven seals is broken. But aren't the seals in the past? No, inspiration indicates they apply primarily to the future and are concurrent with the seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11, which are also primarily future events. The seven apocalyptic trumpets are sent of God to give warning that “the hour of His judgment is come”, that the door of mercy is about to shut and the seven plagues are about to be poured out.

The judgments of the trumpets which are with mercy warn of the plagues which will be without mercy. This is the reason for their similarity. Each trumpet is a precursor to the corresponding plague it warns against. But before reviewing that point further, here's another application inspiration makes of Revelation 5 and it's impact on those who crucified Christ:

Quote:
When Pilate washed his hands, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person," the priests joined with the ignorant mob in declaring passionately, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Matthew 27:24, 25. Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice. Their decision was registered in the book which John saw in the hand of Him that sat upon the throne, the book which no man could open. In all its vindictiveness this decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the Lion of the tribe of Judah. {COL 293.3 and 4}

If Revelation 5 describes the day of reckoning for the murders of Christ what is it for us who, because of our sins, have been likewise responsible for the death of the Son of God if we do not repent?

Regarding the unrolling of the Book and sounding of the trumpets, notice this quote below:

Quote:

My imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1). Thy right hand, O God, shall dash in pieces Thine enemies. Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. [The seven seals.] Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6. I [The first six seals.] {15MR 219.2 – 220.1}


Here's are three more quotes regarding the future application of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation:
Quote:

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

All that God has in prophetic history specified to be fulfilled in the past has been, and all that is yet to come in its order will be. Daniel, God's prophet, stands in his place. John stands in his place. In the Revelation the Lion of the tribe of Judah has opened to the students of prophecy the book of Daniel, and thus is Daniel standing in his place. He bears his testimony, that which the Lord revealed to him in vision of the great and solemn events which we must know as we stand on the very threshold of their fulfillment. {2SM 109.2}

The great crisis is just before us. To meet its trials and temptations, and to perform its duties, will require persevering faith. But we may triumph gloriously; not one watching, praying, believing soul will be ensnared by the enemy. . . The Lion of Judah, so terrible to the rejectors of His grace, will be the Lamb of God to the obedient and faithful. {6T 404.1}

When can we expect these warning trumpets to sound? The seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11 are fore-shadowed by the ancient Feast of Trumpets. On the sacred calendar, the Feast of Trumpets occurred on the first day of the seventh Hebrew month (mid September on our calendar) and announced the approach of the Day of Atonement ten days later, Judgment Day.

While we don't know what year the trumpets will sound there are current signs and harbingers:

*This year is a Sabbatical that ends the seven year cycle when debts are canceled. This occurs on the day before the Feast of Trumpets.
*The two biggest financial meltdowns in the last 14 years occurred on the last day of the two previous Sabbaticals, September 17, 2001 and September 29, 2008.
*The sins of abortion and same sex marriage are soon to become national norms. Vice of every kind is nurtured, oppression and lust, theft and murder are rife.
*Our culture is desensitized to sin and mere words are not enough. God's only means to awake us is a shaking and warning judgments.
*This spring a lunar eclipse called a Blood Moon will fall on Passover and this fall another blood moon eclipse will fall on the Feast of Tabernacles with a solar eclipse between the two.

It says in Joel that before the day of the Lord, the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood.

Consider these statements regarding the impending doom of our cities and our duty to warn them:

Quote:
The end is near and every city is to be turned upside down every way. There will be confusion in every city. Everything that can be shaken is to be shaken and we do not know what will come next. The judgments will be according to the wickedness of the people and the light of truth that they have had.--1MR 248 (1902). {LDE 111.3}

Terrible shocks will come upon the earth, and the lordly palaces erected at great expense will certainly become heaps of ruins.--3MR 312 (1891). {LDE 110.5}

When God's restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. Then in our cities the greatest calamities will come.--3MR 314 (1897). {LDE 111.1}

O that God's people had a sense of the impending destruction of thousands of cities, now almost given to idolatry.--Ev 29 (1903). {LDE 111.4}

The time is near when large cities will be swept away, and all should be warned of these coming judgments.--Ev 29 (1910).

In closing notice that the seven trumpets are immediately preceded by a substantial earthquake. Rev. 8:5. All of this isn't to say something must occur, but we should make no mistake that God can and does appoint times and limits to sinful humanity. This coming September 13 nothing may happen but if I lived in any large city, I would not take the risk of staying there then. And as important as it is to be migrating from the cities, the call of God now is to repent, get our lives right with Him and with each other. Let's not continue to neglect to warn those living in the cities, let's get out of the large cities as soon as we can but, let's do it for the right motives – repentance, not fear.



Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #170637
12/14/14 07:04 PM
12/14/14 07:04 PM
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Karen Y  Online Content OP
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"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." Rev 8:10-11
Because "they have shed the blood of saints and prophets (Rev 16:6)" they must drink the bitter waters, for God "has given them blood to drink; for they are worthy (Rev 16:6)", according to the third plague.
It is apparent that the seven trumpets and the seven plagues present as a series of causes and effects.
Notice the pattern also in the third plague that says, “the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood (Rev. 16:4).
The image of the third trumpet, then, is the warning that God will bring judgment of the third plague.
We are told that the river and springs are no longer pure in the third trumpet, which will cause people to suffer and die, crops fail and famine exists in the consequence, which the third plague portrays.
The third Church in Pergamos, which had the doctrine of Balaam and Nicolaitans, has corrupted the truth that originated from the seat of Satan (Rev 2:13).
The black horse in third seal indicates a compromise of the truth, which turned the water into Wormwood that caused men to die.
Notice also that the each of the seven trumpets is dramatically longer description than the seven plagues. The implication of the trumpets is to give the warnings to avoid the coming seven plagues.

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