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Re: Does God require violence?
#17094
02/16/06 05:14 PM
02/16/06 05:14 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, my understanding of Jesus' behaviour in the OT is NOT based on Jesus' behaviour while He walked the earth as a man.
Yes, this is the problem. This would make a good topic.
quote:
His mission was different in both cases, as will be His mission at the end of time.
The mission has always been the same. There's no difference at any time. The mission is to eradicate sin. The means is the same, which is to reveal truth.
The character of God is unchanging. "I am the Lord. I change not."
Consider the following:
quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. (DA 22)
God was misapprended. For this reason Christ came to show what God was really like. God didn't change in any way; Christ simply made clear what God was always like.
Another point to make is that your view of God's character appears to be distorted, as compare to Christ's view. I'll explain why. Christ explained that what He did is what He saw God doing, and what He said is what He heard Him saying. How did He know what God did and said? From the Scriptures.
So what we see in Christ is nothing more nor less than His view of what God was doing and saying in the Scriptures. Christ is a demonstration of what God is like. The mere fact that you see a different God in the Old Testament than what Jesus Christ presented shows your perspective is different than Christ's. I believe Christ's perspective was correct.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17095
02/16/06 09:00 PM
02/16/06 09:00 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,647
California, USA
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Bro Tom,
That's an interesting question. Here's my take (sans references for lack of time).
God is a consuming fire to sin. I don't think such "violence" is a new thing. I believe it has always been that way, and always will be.
Before Satan made a mess of things, this principle was never manifested. But when sin entered, the violence suddenly had an object to act upon. We see that on the cross when Christ became sin for us.
Another aspect to consider is the fact that only God has life unborrowed, underived. The rest of us live only by receiving life from Him.
Sin separates us from God. And apart from God, there is no life. We can see some of the unsavory consequences of that when we consider the Israelites' experience with the fiery serpents.
Looping back to the cross, we see Christ lifted up as the likeness of the serpent was lifted up in the desert, and took upon Himself the wrath of God. And those who refuse to be crucified in the likeness of His death will have to take God's wrath upon themselves in the Lake of Fire.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17096
02/16/06 10:19 PM
02/16/06 10:19 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Very nice response asygo (Arnold?). quote:
Sin separates us from God. And apart from God, there is no life.
Excellent.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17097
02/16/06 11:23 PM
02/16/06 11:23 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,647
California, USA
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Arnold works. So does asygo, if you prefer.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17098
02/17/06 01:44 AM
02/17/06 01:44 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, the God of the OT was Jesus. I am convinced that Jesus acted differently toward people in the OT than He does in the NT. Jesus has never used plagues, for instance, in the NT to motivate people to fulfill His will.
Sin causes separation, not the other way around. Jesus doesn't withdraw His sustaining grace before we sin. I'm not saying you or Arnold are saying the opposite, but there are SDAs who believe otherwise.
Also, it is separation from the fruit of the tree of life that causes death. And, separation from the breath of life causes death. The presence of God, however, causes sinners to die. Separation from God allows them to live.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17099
02/17/06 03:47 AM
02/17/06 03:47 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the God of the OT was Jesus.
Not from Christ's perspective. He didn't say, "What I see Myself doing, I do." "What I hear Myself say, I say." He said, "What I see My Father do, I do. What I hear Him say, I say." When Christ studied the Old Testament, it was not Himself He saw, but the Father. That's just what He said.
Remember that His job was not to represent Himself, but His Father. That is, Christ's purpose was to reveal God. Actually, that's always been His purpose. In the Old Testatament, that was His purpose as well.
quote:
I am convinced that Jesus acted differently toward people in the OT than He does in the NT.
That's not what He says. He says, "I am the Lord. I change not."
quote:
Jesus has never used plagues, for instance, in the NT to motivate people to fulfill His will.
Nor any other time. "I am the Lord. I change not." "Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power."
quote:
Sin causes separation, not the other way around.
This is correct. "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."
quote:
Jesus doesn't withdraw His sustaining grace before we sin.
Or after. If He did, we'd be dead. We live only by the grace of God, in spite of the fact that we sin.
quote:
I'm not saying you or Arnold are saying the opposite, but there are SDAs who believe otherwise.
I don't know what you're responding to. Ah, I think you're talking about the idea that because we have a sinful nature we incur guilt. I don't know what that has to do with the question I raised.
quote:
Also, it is separation from the fruit of the tree of life that causes death.
No, it's separation from God. See the above quote.
quote:
And, separation from the breath of life causes death. The presence of God, however, causes sinners to die. Separation from God allows them to live.
I'm not following you. Separation from God causes death, not life. You've got this about as confused as possible. "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." Note it doesn't say, "he separates himself from God, which allows him to continue to live." This reminds me when the serpent said, "you shall not surely die." Yes, you will! If you separate yourself from God, you will die, not live.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17100
02/17/06 02:08 PM
02/17/06 02:08 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, the God of the OT was Jesus. When Jesus was here He communed with the Father and then shared these insights with us. Besides, each member of the Godhead think and act alike.
Jesus used plagues in Egypt to fulfill His will. He even slaughtered the first born. Did He ever resort to such tactics while here? No! But He will employ plagues at the end of time. Does this mean He changes? No! It just means that sometimes He uses plagues and sometimes He doesn’t.
Jesus does not continue to sustain us with His grace for resisting temptation after we have started sinning. While we are in sin we are separated from His power to overcome sin. We cannot partake of the divine nature while we are sinning.
Partaking of the divine nature empowers us to resist temptation and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit - not to recover from sinning. It is repentance, another form of grace, that enables us to recover from sinning.
We cannot live, in our sinful state, in the presence of God. His separation, or absence, is necessary for our existence and survival. Even the 144,000 cannot survive in the presence of God until after they have been changed in the twinkling of an eye. Obviously, I am using the word "separation" in a different sense.
It is also true that we gradually die the first death because we do not have access to the fruit of the tree of life. It is equally true that we die when no longer possess the breath of life. Life, in our sinful state, is a miracle. It defies natural law. Adam and Eve should have suffered the second death the instant they sinned, but Jesus paid the penalty and bought the human race probation.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17101
02/17/06 02:30 PM
02/17/06 02:30 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the God of the OT was Jesus. When Jesus was here He communed with the Father and then shared these insights with us. Besides, each member of the Godhead think and act alike.
The insights which Christ shared were not based on some secret metaphysical process of transcental meditation. Christ learned what He did through the study of the Scriptures. All the Scriptures Christ has was the Old Testament.
I perceive you are not grasping the point I'm trying to make. It's a bit subtle, but very clear. Here it is. Jesus said, "What I see My Father doing, I do. What I see My Father saying, I say." What Christ saw and heard is what He saw of God in the Old Testament.
Christ was doing nothing more or less than revealing to us what it is He saw of God as He studied the Scriptures. The fact that you see God as acting in a schitzophrenic fashion shows that your vision and Christ's of God's character (i.e., the God of the Old Testament) are not in harmony.
quote:
Jesus used plagues in Egypt to fulfill His will. He even slaughtered the first born. Did He ever resort to such tactics while here? No! But He will employ plagues at the end of time. Does this mean He changes? No! It just means that sometimes He uses plagues and sometimes He doesn’t.
The Lord says, "I change not." Once again, Jesus' life was simply a presentation of God's character. It's clear you are not perceiving things the same way as Christ.
The purpose of the enemy is to present God in a negative way, and by this deception to lead us into rebellion. It appears to me that your view of the God of the Old Testament is the same as the Pharisees was.
quote:
Jesus does not continue to sustain us with His grace for resisting temptation after we have started sinning. While we are in sin we are separated from His power to overcome sin. We cannot partake of the divine nature while we are sinning.
You're saying different things here. Regarding the first point, if God ceased to sustain us with His grace, that very moment we would die. So clearly God does continue to sustain us with His grace even though we sin.
Perhaps you mean something else, like God does not give us grace for the purpose of sinning. That's certainly true.
Partaking of the divine nature is something entirely different than simply being sustaing by God's grace. The former involves faith on the part of the believer, whereas God's grace sustains all, whether believers or unbelievers.
quote:
Partaking of the divine nature empowers us to resist temptation and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit - not to recover from sinning. It is repentance, another form of grace, that enables us to recover from sinning.
We cannot live, in our sinful state, in the presence of God. His separation, or absence, is necessary for our existence and survival.
So God is not present here? I think what you mean is that we could not survive should God fully reveal His glory. That is true. However, the idea that we live because God separates Himself from us is ill-founded. As I demonstrated from the quote of DA 764, when the sinner chooses to separate himself from God, the result is not life, but death. If God were to separate Himself from us now, we would die, not live. We need God in order to live.
quote:
Even the 144,000 cannot survive in the presence of God until after they have been changed in the twinkling of an eye. Obviously, I am using the word "separation" in a different sense.
Yes, apparently you are using "separation" in the sense of "not a full revelation of God's glory" which is an odd usage of the word.
quote:
It is also true that we gradually die the first death because we do not have access to the fruit of the tree of life.
We die the first death because of sin. It is sin that causes death, whether the first or second.
quote:
It is equally true that we die when no longer possess the breath of life. Life, in our sinful state, is a miracle. It defies natural law. Adam and Eve should have suffered the second death the instant they sinned, but Jesus paid the penalty and bought the human race probation.
This probably means something different to you than it does to me, but I agree with what you've written here.
Incidently, just as Adam and Eve should have suffered the second death the instant they sinned, so too should have the evil angels suffered the second death the moment they sinned. Their life is as much a miracle as Adam and Eve's.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17102
02/17/06 02:56 PM
02/17/06 02:56 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, please refrain from using harsh adjectives and unkind titles to refute my view of salvation. Thank you.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17103
02/17/06 04:20 PM
02/17/06 04:20 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Are you referring to "schitzophrenic"? Or did you have something else in mind? I re-read the post, and that was the only thing I could think of that you might have in mind by "harsh adjectives" and "unkind titles".
I re-read my posts before I send them, and try to weed out things which are too harsh or unkind, but I may have missed something. What did you have in mind? What alternative would you suggest to the words I used?
Do you have any comment about the content of the post?
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