Ded- People get so carried away with a small piece of land, that they miss the TRUE covenant promise. The promise of a Savior!

GLL: Dedication gets carried away. The WORD of the LORD does not.

You are a human being just like me -- you are NOT the WORD. Nor is your interpretation infallible.

And sadly I notice your rapid departure from the promise of a Savior back to that little war torn, sinful piece of property in the middle east, and your attempts to prove these scriptures that you quote mean a HUMAN king will rule over a little kingdom over there that supposedly is to be God's kingdom, prior to the second coming, and prior to the earth made new.



GLL: Not only do we find the clear promise (unconditional) in Isaiah 2:2-3. We find it repeated in Micah 4:1-3, let us look at both Inspired promises and see how close and pinpoint they are to each other.

Yes they are similar. It's the same prophecy. But that is not the point. The way one interprets the first is the same as the way one interprets the second.

Isaiah 2:2-3--

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."


GLL; Now here is the big problem for Dedication. She has to use the term "last days" to apply to the end of the 490 years or to the new earth time period. ONE BIG PROBLEM. Nowhere in Scripture or SOP do we find the term "last days" or "latter days" even referring to the period she is claiming( 490 years) or new earth period.

That is when they apply. There is NO problem at all.

Notice Acts 2 Peter is applying a "last days" prophecy to the end of the 490 years (his time).
Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh

And notice Paul in the epistle to the Hebrews again applies the words "last days" to the end of the 490 years.
1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Had in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son,

"The seventy weeks, or 490 years, especially allotted to the Jews, ended, as we have seen, in A. D. 34. At that time, through the action of the Jewish Sanhedrim, the nation sealed its rejection of the gospel, by the martyrdom of Stephen and the persecution of the followers of Christ." GC 328

Read chapter 59 in Prophets and Kings
I quoted whole sections of it earlier, but you won't even consider that chapter.
Pulling one quote out of the middle of it without considering the full context causes you to miss the intent.

Yes,
Israel were given 490 years following their return to their land after the Babylonian exile.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks (490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It all points to "the last days" of those years, when Messiah would come to them and make reconciliation for iniquity by His death on the cross, and offer everlasting righteousness through the power of the gospel. He confirmed the covenant of salvation!
The light of the gospel was to go out in power to all nations! Had the nation accepted Christ, they would have been the light of the world.

Yet -- the gospel DID go out from Jerusalem. It did go out to the Gentiles. And for a time Jerusalem WAS the center point from which that glorious message of salvation went out.
God fulfilled His promise with the "remnant" of Israel, that believed.



GLL: (But I think because she has been exposed on her new earth application she has withdrawn any more talk of that

NEVER!!!!
The New Earth application is the crowning promise of all these messages. Praise God!!!

Never would I withdraw my belief in that!

It is the grand and final fulfilment!!!

How was it exalted in the last days of the 490 years?
The Son of God came and dwelt with them!!
The living presence of One in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily,—who was God himself manifest in the flesh; the “Desire of all nations” had indeed come to his city.

GLL writes: Dedication is missing one important word here--established
In no way shape or form did our Lord "establish" His house at that time. No, in fact the Jews still ran Jerusalem, as we Bible students certainly know. Our Lord was officially considered an "outcast" and could no more establish His house then as Buddhism can establish it's house in Israel today!

Again your focus is on that little piece of land and not on the Savior of our Salvation -- the Savior of the world.
Just like the Jews of old who "expected the Messiah to prove His claims by mighty deeds of conquest, to establish His empire on the ruins of earthly kingdoms. This expectation Christ answered in the parable of the sower. Not by force of arms, not by violent interpositions, was the kingdom of God to prevail, but by the implanting of a new principle in the hearts of men." {COL 34.4}

So how did Christ establish His kingdom?


Yes, Christ established the kingdom of grace.
He did NOT fail in His purposes of the kingdom He came to establish.
He confirmed the covenant with His own blood by which we are saved.
He provided the means by which that kingdom of grace is established.


And yes, there will be the kingdom of glory.
It will be on the New Earth, with the New Jerusalem as its capital.
And all who have, by the power of the Holy Spirit had that kingdom established in their lives, will then be invited into that glorious eternal literal kingdom.

The important thing now is to have that kingdom established within by the grace and power of the Holy spirit.







GLL: and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Dedication then goes on to attempt to explain that DA, p.621, Acts 2:4-6 show that the "nations" of the world flowed to His established house in Jerusalem. Remember the prophecy calls for "ALL nations to go to the House of Jacob" the house that is exalted above all houses there in Jerusalem.

Acts 2:4 reads:
"devout men, out of every nation under heaven."

This means that "every nation" must of had representatives there in Jerusalem to hear the gospel message.

But again, this was plan "B" not plan "A" -- God fulfilled His part of the promise, the nation failed to fulfill it's end of the covenant. Thus it couldn't be the light to world in the full sense God was offering this privilege to them.
It was only a remnant that shared the kingdom of grace message to those who came to Jerusalem, and then went out into all nations carrying the good news of the kingdom of grace to world.

Read again chapter 59 in Prophets and Kings.

It seems in your interpretations the "kingdom" must be a religious/political identity with a geographic location, -- but the "mountain of the Lord" can be a spiritual kingdom. Indeed something like 90 percent of Christ's references to His kingdom were spiritual, the rest being the kingdom of glory when He comes in the full glory of heaven.





GLL wrote: Remember these verses are in context, showing that it happens when the Lord removes the weapons of war (Isaiah 2:4) All the weapons of war existed in Jesus' time and after.
As far as Isaiah 2:4 goes, let's look at it.
Isa. 2:4 -- "And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
those nations who go to the mountain (Kingdom church purified) of the Lord "shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks" -- they will go farming instead of spending their strength in war.


But the text doesn't say it's only those in the purified "kingdom" that get rid of their weapons, it says He will judge among nations and "nation shall not lift up sword against nation"

yet you then quote that nations WILL lift up weapons against nations. So that explanation doesn't make sense.

Though if I were to follow your reasoning and apply it to the last days of the 490 years, then it's easy to see that the apostolic church did NOT use swords, might or power as they went out to establish the gospel of grace in the nations. And indeed they rebuked sin and violence, and those who listened didn't use weapons to convert people, but the "enemies" and "apostates" most certainly did.

Ded- I haven't denied that corruption is found in the church.

No one accuse of denying that. I am accusing you of ignoring how God used Isaiah to prophesies more for us than for his day. And that means ALL of it. What we need to do is look at it from Inspirations point of view not ours.When we see promises such as Isaiah 2:2-3 we need to take it as applying to us, first and foremost. This is what Inspiration counsels us to do.

Ded- What I don't believe is that God will mysteriously cause all Adventists to suddenly die. He didn't do that to the Israel nation in the ancient days, and He won't do that now.

Of course you don't believe it. The angels have recorded it as well.

"Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God.The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the
spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed.

These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. {5T 211.2}

Ded-Notice Acts 2 Peter is applying a "last days" prophecy to the end of the 490 years (his time).

We are aware of that application however, as we Bible students know there is many times a dual or double application to verses such as Joel of which peter quotes.

The rest of your argument is weak due to the fact that you cannot escape this sound reason as already mentioned. here is why Isaiah 2:2-3 must apply in future--

Dedication is missing one important word here--established.

In no way shape or form did our Lord "establish" His house at that time. No, in fact the Jews still ran Jerusalem, as we Bible students certainly know. Our Lord was officially considered an "outcast" and could no more establish His house then as Buddhism can establish it's house in Israel today!

and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Dedication then goes on to attempt to explain that DA, p.621, Acts 2:4-6 show that the "nations" of the world flowed to His established house in Jerusalem.Remember the prophecy calls for "ALL nations to go to the House of Jacob" the house that is exalted above all houses there in Jerusalem.

Her quotes point to some people going to see the Lord and his disciples yet this in no way is "ALL nations". Further the Jews and Romans controlled Jerusalem during and after Jesus' time.

Let us keep in mind that His house certainly was not established. The Jews still remained the established house of worship in Jerusalem after Christ. History bears this out.

For good measure let's look at the word "established" as defined in dictionary--

es·tab·lished
iˈstabliSHt/Submit
adjective
1.
having been in existence for a long time and therefore recognized and generally accepted.

So to make the interpretation true, we must read it as it states. "Shall be established" which certainly did not happen in Jerusalem. In 70 AD the whole place crashed, no establishment at all.

Makes no sense to say God's house was established above the other houses in Jerusalem during or after Jesus.

Remember these verses are in context, showing that it happens when the Lord removes the weapons of war (Isaiah 2:4) All the weapons of war existed in Jesus' time and after.

To really nail down this time period Dedication would have to admit that the weapons of Isaiah 2:4 did not transform as the Lord promised He would do. Certainly not during His time or even after it!

So that leaves us with a prophecy yet to be fulfilled, as we have said all along.

"The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers." (GC, p.598)

Well, you can continue to place your hopes in a human king ruling in a human kingdom and call that God's kingdom.


I'll place my hopes in a Savior, who plants His kingdom of Grace within, and fits us for that heavenly kingdom.

I just feel terrible sorry for all you will lead into Satan's camp.
That's the only reason I put as much effort into this as I have.

And its very, very likely your beliefs will lead many SR people into taking things into their hands, believing that God has instructed them to do so.
After all, there are plenty of OT scripture that would support it.
Especially as the Sunday laws become reality and they realize those terrible Adventists are still around, hindering their flight into the imaginary kingdom of Palestine.

Ded-I just feel terrible sorry for all you will lead into Satan's camp.
That's the only reason I put as much effort into this as I have.

********************************

Likewise I feel "sorry" for you as well. And ,again I do put forth a effort to show you your errors.

Now, let us understand what INSPIRATION clearly is saying.

Do you see how your understanding of Isaiah 2:2-3 cannot be true? It is impossible to place it prior, during, or after Christ's day. It can be only applicable to our future time.

For the plain fact that in context verse 4 dis-allows your time periods. --"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

Nations surely did/does practice war since Isaiah's time.

"I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in this state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

That will be reality ONLY in the earth made new.
Nations will continue to war until Christ's second coming, and they will take up their war again as soon as they are raised after the 1000 years. Only after the cleansing fire and earth is made new, will it be true that nations shall learn war NO MORE!

The first application of the prophecy took place at Christ's first coming (at the end of the 490 years) when He came to establish the kingdom of grace -- and that kingdom of grace did "come out of Jerusalem" for that is where Christ died, rose, and commissioned His disciples to GO and teach all nations (Matt 28:20) That is where the Holy Spirit was poured out on Christ's followers and they went forth with boldness declaring the kingdom of GRACE to all nations.

And yes, Christ, through His Holy Spirit "shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people"


John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

Ded- That will be reality ONLY in the earth made new.
Nations will continue to war until Christ's second coming, and they will take up their war again as soon as they are raised after the 1000 years. Only after the cleansing fire and earth is made new, will it be true that nations shall learn war NO MORE!

Isn't it truly amazing how Dedication likes to point out how we must read things in "context" yet when the situation fits her agenda, she denies context.

Here is the complete context of Inspiration --

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."


I've underlined the connector--AND. this is from the King James version. Corroborated with many many other translations as well.

In reading it as we should , we see that during this time when the nations of the world shall flow into Jerusalem, God's law shall be exalted and flow from the Holy land. At this same time the nations shall not learn war anymore.

Dedication then goes on to tell God what He can and cannot say. She says "That will be reality ONLY in the earth made new."

Again, let it be clear. Dedication cannot and never will be able to show from Inspiration that "last days" mean the time of the New Earth. This is nothing more than private interpretation, which as we know is forbidden in God's word (2 Peter 1:20).

Summary

In the final analysis, we can choose private interpretations with it's twists and turns away from the clear straight word of God, or we can "Take the Bible as it reads", meaning that God will establish a sort of world headquarters in Jerusalem in the "last days" where many people shall flow to and get God's real word. This will be the "Great Controversy" for it happens in the time that Satan is "wroth with the Woman" and goes to make war with God's people via his own army of false and un-converted multitudes.

This "war" is spiritual as opposed to mankind's war with weapons. God does not let that happen any more as Isaiah 2:4 says. Everything during this time is about God vs. Satan. Mankind's foolish games (war, money, lusts) take a back seat to the reality that God has arrived with His "battle axe"--

"Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;" (Jer.51:20)

During this time Satan is forming his collation in the world--to establish his counterfiet kingdom. he can't stand that God's 144,000 are convicting many in the world , because God is with His servants and they are doing miracles and wonders that is making front page news. The Sunday keepers are mixed. Some believe and are converted to the Sabbath and others don't.

"The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." (GC p. 598)

Here is the complete context of Inspiration --

2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

As we noted, this is concerning Judah and Jerusalem (in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah vs. 1:1)

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
Shown several times now -- the "last days" of Judah and Jerusalem's time of probation -- ie -- the 490 years.

“The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,” had been their message. At the expiration of “the time”—the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel 9, which were to extend to the Messiah, “the Anointed One”—Christ had received the anointing of the Spirit, after his baptism by John in Jordan. And the “kingdom of God” which they had declared to be at hand, was established by the death of Christ. GC 346

that] the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it

“Christ's work was largely confined to Judea. But though his personal ministry did not extend to other lands, people from all nations listened to his teaching, and carried the message to all parts of the world. Many heard of Jesus by hearing of the wonderful miracles that he performed. And the knowledge of his suffering and death, which were to be witnessed by the large number in attendance at the Passover, would be spread from Jerusalem to all parts of the world. (RH Oct. 26,1897)

God's plan for Israel --
They were to be the light of the world.
And in many ways they were --
Christ, the Son of God, came to them establishing the kingdom of grace, and from Jerusalem that glorious message went out to the world.
But Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace.

But now to the "last days" of our history

continued from last post:

Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace, wanting only a kingdom of honor over nations.

In the "last days" of our history, things haven't changed, people still want a temporal kingdom rather than the kingdom of grace.

2:2- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

and

Micah 4:1-5.
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."



Who is it that shall say these things?—

"Many nations [Isa. "Many people"]

So who is saying these things exactly?
Is it God, or is it "many nations" and "many people"?

In the last days then many people shall say that "the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." In the last days many people shall say, The nations "shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks." In the last days many people shall say that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

In the last days many people shall say, "they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid." And, too, they will say that "the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." All these things many people will say in the last days.

Apparently, these prophets are predicting the counterfeit establishment of Christianity over the nations.

God's purposes will be counterfeited.
How do we come to such a conclusion?
Well, yes, read the CONTEXT!

First, these scripture do not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. They will say it is what God said.

They establish "Christianity" over the mountains and hills -- that is taking control over governments and religion.
It is the political/religious counterfeit mountain in the name of the Lord.

That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outward thing, and not the real kingdom of grace established by Christ, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-

"Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not." Isaiah 2:6-9


THEREFORE --

What is that "therefore" at the beginning, referring back to --
It's referring back to the verses where the PEOPLE are saying all these wonderful things!!!

So why does this say

Therefore?
Therefore thou (referring to God) hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob???


These verses show that while the people profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation.

In a counterfeit establishment of worship -- the standard of what true Christianity is, is lowered, until it comes down to where the mass of the people are, and then they "worship" thinking they are "saving the world" by flowing into this established Christianity that has set itself above all "mountains" and "hills".

And what will be the final result?

The prophet Isaiah continues:
"Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low." "And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he arised to shake terribly the earth. In the day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefs of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake the terrible the earth." Isa. 2:10-12, 19-21.

The second coming --
Rev. 6:14-16 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13.

And when the earth is cleansed, then will be fulfilled the word of the Lord which is written: "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34); for "all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isa. 54:13.