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Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? #170862
12/25/14 08:38 PM
12/25/14 08:38 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? Mark thinks so:
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
There's been an ongoing debate among the Jews and also among Christians for centuries on the timing of the Feast of Firstfruits. I agree with the Karaite Jews that according to Lev 23 and other texts, Firstfruits and Pentecost are always on Sunday, that Sunday was observed before the temple was destroyed but that some knowledge of the proper timing of the Feasts was lost afterwards. I looked into this a few years ago and I put my thoughts down in a couple of my ebooks.

Yeah - I have studied this also.

Lunar Sabbatarians believe that first fruits and Pentecost always fall on Sunday. This is because they claim that the seventh-day Sabbath is determined by the moon, and thus always on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the month. This also every feast day would fall on the "seventh-day Sabbath". Mark, do you believe in the Lunar Sabbath???

The Seventh-day sabbath is not determined by the moon. The Jewish months however were and the festivals of the Lord were based on the New Moon. That being the fact, the start of the feasts could be on any day of the week. Passover could be on any day of the week. This would be the 14th day of the first month. First Fruits would be two days later on the 16th. The 15th did not need to be the seventh-day Sabbath. Fifty days after First Fruits was Pentecost (50 days inclusive). This did not need to be a Sunday.

In the year of Christ's crucifixion, He was went to the cross on Friday, and rose on Sunday as the First Fruits. This being 31AD. This does not in any way confirm that First Fruits was always on Sunday. EG White tells us clearly that Passover was on the 14th, and First Fruits on the 16th of the First month. (See PP Chapter 52) The start of the Jewish month could be on any day of the week as it is in our current day calendar, the 15th not necessarily the weekly Sabbath.

AT Jones writes:It is true that the day of the week on which that Pentecost came is not of the least importance in itself either for or against any sacredness that was put upon it by that occurrence. It is "the day of Pentecost" that is named by the word of God. It was the feast of Pentecost with its types, that was to meet the grand object--the reality--to which its services had ever pointed. And everybody knows that the Pentecost came on each day of the week in succession as the years passed by; the same as does Christmas, or the Fourth of July, or any other yearly celebration. Therefore whatever were its occurrences, they could have no purpose in giving to the day of the week on which it fell any particular significance. {1888 ATJ, ASLD 65.5}

Yet though this be true, there is so much made of it by those who will have the first day of the week to be the Sabbath, by claiming always that Pentecost was on the first day of the week, that we feel disposed to refer to the Scriptures, which show that this claim is not founded on fact.
{1888 ATJ, ASLD 66.1}

He then goes on to review the scripture and agrees with Ellen White that first fruits was always on the 16th day of the first month and Pentecost 50 days later.

First Fruits and Pentecost could fall on any day of the week, and the day of the week if fell was of no significance other that it was the Day of First Fruits and Pentecost. It did not always fall on a Sunday. I'll go with Ellen White on this fact.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: APL] #170863
12/25/14 11:51 PM
12/25/14 11:51 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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I checked it out and you're right, she does say that at the bottom of page 539 in PP. Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: APL] #170867
12/26/14 05:10 AM
12/26/14 05:10 AM
APL  Offline OP
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So you agree that First Fruits and Pentecost do not always fall on Sunday?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: APL] #170872
12/26/14 10:13 AM
12/26/14 10:13 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Yes. smile

Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: APL] #170873
12/26/14 12:48 PM
12/26/14 12:48 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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On writing that First Fruits was on the 16th of the First month, Ellen White may have been influenced by the writings of Josephus. According to the Bible, however, this does not seem to be the case.

Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: APL] #170875
12/26/14 01:50 PM
12/26/14 01:50 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
On writing that First Fruits was on the 16th of the First month, Ellen White may have been influenced by the writings of Josephus. According to the Bible, however, this does not seem to be the case.
OK - so Rosangela says EGW is wrong. Do you also believe that Passover was always the same day of the week? If not, what happens when Passover happened on the 7th-day Sabbath? Passover was on the 14th day of the month, Leviticus 23:5. The next day began the feast of unleavened bread, the 15th of the month, a Sunday. If Passover was a 7th-day Sabbath, then the first day of unleaven bread would be an annual Sabbath, the next day was the presentation of the Wave Sheaf, on the 16th of the month, so in the scenario, this would be on what we now call Monday. The count to Pentecost begins, after the annual Sabbath. But Rosangela, are you suggesting that they needed to wait another week before beginning the count to Pentecost? That IS what you are saying. If EGW is wrong on this point, where else is she wrong?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: Rosangela] #170876
12/26/14 02:01 PM
12/26/14 02:01 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Putting aside the confusion the Lunar group is putting on this issue, what the law says is the firstfruit falls the day after the Sabbath. Then the Pentecost is after 7 sabbaths making both these events a 8th day (Sunday) observant.

AV Lv 23:15 . And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

There are two interpretations of what constitute "the Sabbath" in this text amongs the Jews. From my own studies, I personally lean on the second interpretation as the correct one. But as all things, the Holy Spirit is to give us personally the interpretation.

The pharisees : says that the 1st day of unleavened bread is a sabbath, so the wave sheave offering(aka firstfruit) falls on any day of the week like the 1st day unleavened does.

Some others says : the Sabbath in Lev 23:15 means the real 7-day week Sabbath and not the firstfruit Feast Sabbath, thus making the firstfruit and the Pentecost always falling on the 8th day (Sunday).


Blessings
Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: APL] #170877
12/26/14 02:05 PM
12/26/14 02:05 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
On writing that First Fruits was on the 16th of the First month, Ellen White may have been influenced by the writings of Josephus. According to the Bible, however, this does not seem to be the case.
OK - so Rosangela says EGW is wrong. . . . If EGW is wrong on this point, where else is she wrong?
I think Roseangela's saying Ellen White is probably right. The same thought - EGW may have been influenced by someone such as Josephus - crossed my mind as well, but I don't think that she was mislead.

Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: Charity] #170879
12/26/14 02:18 PM
12/26/14 02:18 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
On writing that First Fruits was on the 16th of the First month, Ellen White may have been influenced by the writings of Josephus. According to the Bible, however, this does not seem to be the case.
OK - so Rosangela says EGW is wrong. . . . If EGW is wrong on this point, where else is she wrong?
I think Roseangela's saying Ellen White is probably right. The same thought - EGW may have been influenced by someone such as Josephus - crossed my mind as well, but I don't think that she was mislead.


So counting 7 sabbaths from that point would mean not the literal 7 week Sabbaths. So this opens up the argument that a 7 day weekly Sabbath can start on any day.


Blessings
Re: Does Pentecost always fall on a Sunday? [Re: Charity] #170884
12/26/14 03:08 PM
12/26/14 03:08 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
On writing that First Fruits was on the 16th of the First month, Ellen White may have been influenced by the writings of Josephus. According to the Bible, however, this does not seem to be the case.
OK - so Rosangela says EGW is wrong. . . . If EGW is wrong on this point, where else is she wrong?
I think Roseangela's saying Ellen White is probably right. The same thought - EGW may have been influenced by someone such as Josephus - crossed my mind as well, but I don't think that she was mislead.

There may be a language issue - but I take what Rosangela to be saying is that EGW was not correct. If I wrong, the I apologize.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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