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Does God require violence?
#17084
02/14/06 02:54 PM
02/14/06 02:54 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Did God require violence in order to solve the problem of rebellion? Is violence a core, fundamental principle of God's government? Did sin introduce a new element into God's government which required violence in order to re-establish it? Is the only way God can fix rebellion by violent means?
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17085
02/15/06 12:28 PM
02/15/06 12:28 PM
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SDA
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I'm not sure what you're getting at Tom. Is it the crucifixion? That was violent and it was required in the sense that a randsom was needed for humanity, wasn't it?
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17086
02/15/06 01:35 PM
02/15/06 01:35 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean, either, Tom? There is a teaching out there that says that "God does not destroy." Do you believe that?
Tammy
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17087
02/15/06 02:33 PM
02/15/06 02:33 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I was thinking primarily of the cross. My understanding of the cross is that it was necessary for our sake. For example, we read quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. (DA 22)
Also
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (11/20/90)
I understand that since the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right through the revelation of God, this was also the purpose of the cross, since it was the apix of Christ's ministry. And indeed, this understanding is born out in the following:
quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
I can go into more detail on this aspect of things, although it's not exactly what I'm asking. What I'm asking is a philosophical question. If we take the position that the cross is something that *God* requires in order to deal with the sin problem, then the conclusion is that sin either revealed an underlying princple of God's government (violence), or sin added an element to it which wasn't there before (violence).
That is, if the violence is instigated by God, then it must be a principle of His government. If we believe God the way God solves problems is by violence, it seems to me this has profound implications. It also seems to me that if Christ's purpose was to reveal God's character, and God's character is founded on violence, Christ did an awfully poor job, because one can hardly imaging a less violent person than Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the responses! I hope I'm being clear.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17088
02/15/06 06:03 PM
02/15/06 06:03 PM
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SDA
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Violence may not be the best word to describe the justice of God. Throughout the OT Jesus used disease and destruction to punish and/or discipline sinners.
Romans
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17089
02/15/06 06:44 PM
02/15/06 06:44 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The rest of the text shows the vengeance of God, how it is that God repays: quote:
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Please note that God is not asking us to do anything other than what He does. Christ overcame evil with good. He turned the other cheek, walked the second mile. God is simply asking us to be like Hime.
A distorted understanding of this text would be "I'd really like to bash this guy, but I'm supposed to leave vengeance with God, so I'll control myself and let God bash him."
Regarding understanding God's justice as violence, it's certainly true that this would be a bad characterization of it. God's justice is setting things right:
quote:
18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him. (Isa. 30:18)
God longs to be gracious and merciful to us because He is a God of justice. Justice is setting things right, and the way God does this is through grace and mercy.
quote:
“Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘ Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother. (Zech. 7:9)
God's justice is manifest by mercy and compassion, whether by God Himself or by us.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17090
02/16/06 03:55 AM
02/16/06 03:55 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Hi Tom,
I was just reading the above scripture in Romans 12: 19-21 beginning of this week, and the message you posted above was very clear to me. I thought those same thoughts that you posted.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17091
02/16/06 03:02 PM
02/16/06 03:02 PM
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SDA
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Tom, even a casual perusal of the OT makes it abundantly clear that Jesus did not exact vengeance by turning the other cheek. The Flood, the fiery devastation of Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, and the repetitious times the Jews were afflicted with disease and destruction are all common examples of how Jesus meted out justice. The fruit of vengeance is fear and obedience – fear of retribution and the joy of obedience.
SC 21 22
… the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}
And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17092
02/16/06 03:54 PM
02/16/06 03:54 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, even a casual perusal of the OT makes it abundantly clear that Jesus did not exact vengeance by turning the other cheek.
It seems far more likely to me that you are misunderstanding the Old Testatement than that God's character changed. However, you're in good company, because even holy angels did not understand things fully until Christ's revelation.
quote:
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
Remember, the whole purpose of Christ's ministry was to reveal God to us. If it was already known what God was like, there would not have been a need for Christ to reveal the truth.
Christ came to clear away the misconceptions. Take, for example, the disciples, who appear to have had the same view you are espousing. They suggested that they should call fire down from heaven to destroy, just as they (and apparently you) misunderstood was God's way as revealed in the Old Testament. How did Christ respond? Did He say, "Not now. That's a good idea, but this isn't the right time?" No! He responded, "You know not of what spirit you are."
Indeed, Christ put his finger on the problem.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17093
02/16/06 06:03 PM
02/16/06 06:03 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, my understanding of Jesus' behaviour in the OT is NOT based on Jesus' behaviour while He walked the earth as a man. His mission was different in both cases, as will be His mission at the end of time. Hear what the angels say about Jesus' end time mission of vengeance and retribution:
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
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