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Re: Does God require violence?
#17114
02/20/06 03:49 PM
02/20/06 03:49 PM
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Tom, the idea that Jesus merely withdraws His protection and the inevitable happens does not divorce Him from the outcome. Besides, natural law isn't some kind of caged beast or monster eager to sneak past Jesus so it can kill us. The fiery serpents were not constrained by Jesus against their insatiable desire to sink their venomous fangs into the unruly Jews. Nature isn't wringing her hands, pleading, "Come on Jesus, stand aside and let us kill the ornery idiots."
Even if this picture of Jesus and nature were true, which I do not believe it is, it doesn’t make Jesus any less involved or responsible. In a court of law it is called – the duty to act. Rather, I believe the truth is that Jesus commanded the fiery serpents to poison the Jews, and that the fiery serpents obeyed His will. The same thing is true of all the plagues Jesus used to humble Pharaoh. The forces of nature obeyed His will.
Unless otherwise instructed, nature and natural law goes about their business obeying the laws that govern them, laws that Jesus upholds. Nature isn’t obeying the laws of Jesus against its great desire to kill humans. Nature doesn’t have a conscience, a preference to kill humans. It simply obeys the will of Jesus like a hammer in the hand of a carpenter.
There are times when Jesus employs the forces of nature to punish and destroy rebellious sinners, and there are times when He commands holy angels to carry our His orders, and there are times when He allows Satan and his evil angels to wreak havoc. Either way, Jesus is in control, He is ultimately responsible for the outcome. The credit is His alone. Nothing and no one can do anything to mankind without Jesus' permission.
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17115
02/20/06 05:09 PM
02/20/06 05:09 PM
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OP
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quote:
The fiery serpents were not constrained by Jesus against their insatiable desire to sink their venomous fangs into the unruly Jews.
They most certainly were, until such time as the Jews forced God to withdraw His protection. I use "forced" not in the sense of physical force, but in the sense that God will not force the will, so if we insist He leave us alone, eventually He will do do.
At any rate, it seems to me that you have missed the point of this thread. I'm happy to discuss the issues you are bringing up if you will either open a new topic to discuss them, or explain to me how they tie into to the question of my thread, which is if God requires violence.
I'm not seeing how the points you are raising have anything to do with my question, but if you can show some linkage, I'll be happy to continue discussing these things.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17116
02/20/06 10:38 PM
02/20/06 10:38 PM
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Tom, you are insisting that Jesus has never used "violence" to deal with sin and sinners. It was pointed out that He used fiery serpents to punish the Jews. You insist that He didn't command the fiery serpents to sting the Jews because, according to your view, He has never used violence to deal with sinners. You seem convinced that every time something deadly happened in the OT it happened because Jesus simply stopped holding back the forces that are burning with desire to kill us. You also seem to think that it doesn't make Him responsible for the outcome.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17117
02/20/06 11:24 PM
02/20/06 11:24 PM
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MM:Tom, you are insisting that Jesus has never used "violence" to deal with sin and sinners. It was pointed out that He used fiery serpents to punish the Jews. I pointed out that God did this by withdrawing His presence, which is in harmony with the view that God's government is not dependent upon violence. quote:
Moses faithfully set before the people their great sin in murmuring against God. He pointed them to the fact that every day of their travels in the wilderness they had been preserved by a miracle of divine mercy. The Majesty of Heaven had prepared the way before them. Their feet had not swollen in their long journeys, neither had their clothes grown old. There was no sickness in all their ranks. God had given them food from Heaven, and water from the rock. He had subdued before them the strong and dangerous beasts, as well as the serpents, that inhabited forest and wilderness. If the people still complained, with all these tokens of his love, the Lord would continue to send judgments upon them, until they should appreciate his merciful care.
Because they had been shielded by the power of God, the Israelites did not realize the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. They had hardened their hearts in unbelief, and were unwilling to be guided and controlled by God; they dwelt upon imaginary evils, and continually distrusted the hand which had hitherto led them. Again and again the Lord had brought them into strait places to prove whether they would trust in him, after so many evidences of his care. But they failed to endure the test; and now, though the Heaven-sent manna lay fresh upon the ground every morning, they dared to accuse Moses of killing them with hunger. In their ingratitude and unbelief, they had anticipated death, and now the Lord withdrew his protecting hand, and permitted death to come upon them. (ST 11/28/80)
The serpents were always there! God didn't send them in the sense that He actively sicked them on the Isrealites, but in the sense that He withdrew His protection.
You insist that He didn't command the fiery serpents to sting the Jews because, according to your view, He has never used violence to deal with sinners.
It is not I who said this, but Ellen White. I'm just repeating what she said. And actually anyone should be able to understand this from the Scriptures, without having to depend on her.
You seem no to be understanding the point of this thread. Or if you are, you're not making it clear to me. As I said before, I'm happy to discuss this issue with you, but please either start a new topic, or explain how it ties in with the topic of this thread.
Once again, the topic of the thread is, "Does God require violence?" If you think the answer is "yes," then make your case. Why? The whole point of the thread is why?
I'm suggesting that there is a philosophical problem in suggesting that God requires violence in dealing the with the sin problem. The philosophical problem is that either violence is something which was always a part of God's government, but lay dormant and unseen until sin came onto the scene, or the entrance of sin introduced a new element into God's government. Either alternative is troublesome.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17118
02/20/06 11:58 PM
02/20/06 11:58 PM
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quote:
Is violence the means by which God does away with sin? Or is violence something self-contained by sin, and the means of destroying sin something else (such as, for example, the revelation of truth).
I think there is more than one type of violence, and more than one way to destroy sin.
Violence
#1: Sin is destroyed in God's presence. That kind of violence is part of God's character. Sin cannot exist in the presence of infinite holiness. This is the only way to destroy sin. This is an inescapable part of God's territory.
#2: Sin causes its slaves to behave in violent ways. Leave people alone and their bent to evil takes over. Leave "sinful earth" animals alone and they do some nasty things, such as biting people. This is the result of sin not being destroyed. This is an inescapable part of Satan's territory.
Destroying sin
#1: Sin can be destroyed by replacing it with love. Since only love begets love, force cannot be used to accomplish this purpose. Christ came here to give the definitive demonstration of God's love, and to empower us to partake of and participate in that love. This results in a creature who reflects God's character. This can be considered the "redemptive" way to destroy sin.
#2: At the end of time, God will come here in infinite glory, not veiled by fallen flesh. That event will destroy sin by fire. This results in a pile of ash. This can be considered the "punitive" way to destroy sin.
In both cases, it is God's presence that destroys sin. If God's presence is internal, it destroys sin and purifies the sinner. If God's presence is merely external, it destroys sin and the sinner, and purifies the universe.
Another way of looking at it is that the wages of sin is death. Because of sin, we must die. It is up to us to choose to die to self or with self.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17119
02/21/06 12:35 AM
02/21/06 12:35 AM
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Excellent Arnold! Very good! This is exactly along the lines I've been thinking. In particular, if one considers DA 764 one sees both elements of violence you mention: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
The underlined portion looks like Arnold Violence #1, and the bold looks like Arnold Violence #2. Note there is an apparent contradiction here. In the first part of the paragraph the sinner is destroyed because the sinner chooses to withdraw from God, who is alone the source of life, whereas in the second it appears to be God's proximity which causes the destruction of the sinner.
This apparent paradox puzzled me for quite some time, but with time and grace was able to come to a solution, which I'll share a bit later. Before I do, I'm interested in your thoughts (and any one else's who'd like to join in) on the matter.
Also by way of clarification on this point, consider the question of how exactly it is that God destroys sin. This is a crucial question. For example, is it possible to destroy sin by violence? Or would it just crop up again?
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17120
02/22/06 04:46 AM
02/22/06 04:46 AM
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Tom, we have gone back and forth on whether or not Jesus uses plagues to punish and destroy rebellious sinners. I believe He orchestrates the plague-punishment cycle by commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to make it happen, and you believe He simply withdraws His protection and allows evil to run its inevitable, impending course. You seem to believe nature is like a caged beast, roaring like a lion, desperate to kill us, eager to rip us to shreds were it not for the staying hand of God. Here are two quotes from the SOP. The first one is taken from the quote you posted above, and the second one is familiar to both of us. I agree with you that when Jesus withdraws His protection death and destruction happen. But I disagree with you that that is all He does. I believe He commands holy angels to “cause” things to happen, or He “permits” evil angels to make things happen. Either way nature obeys Jesus. For example, the earth convulses, earthquakes occur, selected people die, and the will of God is served. quote:
If the people still complained, with all these tokens of his love, the Lord would continue to send judgments upon them, until they should appreciate his merciful care. {ST 11-28-80}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
You keep questioning how these insights apply to this thread. It seems obvious to me. Does God require violence in dealing with the sin problem? Well, how has He dealt with it thus far? Let’s assume, for the sake of discussion, that your view of the historical OT plague-punishment cycle is correct. If death and destruction (i.e., violence) happened because Jesus ceased holding in check the impending forces of nature, it is clear to me, then, that it happened because of what Jesus did.
So, the answer to your question, whether we accept your view or my view, is the same. Although, I would restate your question this way – Is death and destruction necessary as Jesus deals with the sin problem? Again, I would answer – Yes!
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17121
02/21/06 06:35 PM
02/21/06 06:35 PM
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OP
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Tom, we have gone back and forth on whether or not Jesus uses plagues to punish and destroy rebellious sinners. I believe He orchestrates the plague-punishment cycle by commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to make it happen, and you believe He simply withdraws His protection and allows evil to run its inevitable, impending course. You wrote "I believe He orchestrates the plague-punishment cycle by commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to make it happen" which is:
a)holy angels or
b)evil angels
whereas I believe (according to you)
a)He simply withdraws His protection and allows evil to run its inevitable, impending course,
and then you make a comment about nature, but skip evil angels. So the possible implication is that I don't believe evil angels are involved in destroying us. But I do believe evil angels are involved in our destruction. In fact, all destruction comes, directly or indirectly, from evil angels. So I would include both nature and evil angels as direct causes as destruction, and God as an indirect cause.
In what you listed and being able to destroy, you have omitted nature, including only evil angels. Was that deliberate?You seem to believe nature is like a caged beast, roaring like a lion, desperate to kill us, eager to rip us to shreds were it not for the staying hand of God. It seems like you are intending to belittle my viewpoint here, but if you look at what was posted above you will see it said the following: quote:
Because they had been shielded by the power of God, the Israelites did not realize the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded.
Also from the Great Controversy we read:
quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy.(GC 36)
This lack of appreciation (in the sense of perception, not gratitude) on your part is a great lack in the position you are espousing, IMO. That is, the Spirit of Prophecy tells us that we cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the protection He affords us. This tells us that it is more than we would expect, which implies the danger we are protected from is more than we would think too.
In the quote from above, she talks about God's protection, involving nature. The truth is that, indeed, nature would destroy us, and God does restrain it, like a wild beast. When God releases the winds of strife, we will see the destruction that nature can cause, destruction which God has kept under wraps for so long.
Consider the fact that stars go out, and that there are black holes in the universe. This demonstrates that sin is extremely powerful. It appears to me that you view sin as innocuous, having no power whatsoever to destroy.
In a nutshell, I think this is a fundamental difference in our viewpoints. You see sin as not having any power to destroy, whereas God is a powerful destroyer who will withhold His destruction if His wrath is appeased, His "blood-thirsty vengeance" as you call it. I see sin as having tremendous power to destroy, in many ways, and God protects us from this destruction as much as He can.
Is the blue easy to read? It seems like a clearer way of distinguishing between what you and I are writing; also I can make clear what are the EGW quotes. However, if you find it difficult to read, I'll try something else, like writing in all caps when I'm writing (just kidding).
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17122
02/21/06 08:34 PM
02/21/06 08:34 PM
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Yeah, I like the blue text, too. Thank you. quote:
I agree with you that when Jesus withdraws His protection death and destruction happen. But I disagree with you that that is all He does. I believe He commands holy angels to “cause” things to happen, or He “permits” evil angels to make things happen. Either way nature obeys Jesus. For example, the earth convulses, earthquakes occur, selected people die, and the will of God is served.
I reposted the paragraph above to reiterate the points contained therein.
quote:
In fact, all destruction comes, directly or indirectly, from evil angels. So I would include both nature and evil angels as direct causes as destruction, and God as an indirect cause.
What about the GC 614 quote where Sister White plainly says Jesus employs both holy and evil angels to work death and destruction? Also, Jesus’ “indirect” cause and involvement makes Him directly responsible for the outcome. He gets the credit. Do you agree?
Also, I do not believe nature, if left to itself, would single us out with the intention of killing us to satisfy its lust for human blood. Instead, I believe Jesus either commands holy angels or permits evil angels to employ the forces of nature to accomplish His intended purposes, namely, to punish unsaved sinners and to motivate fense-riders to convert and obey.
quote:
You see sin as not having any power to destroy, whereas God is a powerful destroyer who will withhold His destruction if His wrath is appeased, His "blood-thirsty vengeance" as you call it.
That’s right. Sin is not a thing or person that possesses the power to kill us. Sinners, on the other hand, do possess the power to kill – but within certain limits. For example, Jesus will not allow evil angels to kill us any time they choose. There are boundaries that they are not permitted to pass.
By the way, when I referred to God as blood-thirsty, vengeful Being I did not mean it in the sinful sense. The Bible often speaks of God as requiring blood and exacting vengeance. The wrath of God is love.
Deuteronomy
32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.
EW 51
The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17123
02/22/06 04:37 AM
02/22/06 04:37 AM
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OP
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What about the GC 614 quote where Sister White plainly says Jesus employs both holy and evil angels to work death and destruction? Why not read the whole context instead of pulling a single sentance out? One could prove anything with this methodology.
quote:
There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who
615
have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution. When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God.
This is immediately following the sentence.
quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.
This is immediately preceding. You would wrest a sentence from its context without even considering the paragraphs immediately preceding it and following it!
Notice she refered to the destruction of Jerusalem. What does she say about the destruction of Jerusalem, to which she compares the plagues dozens of times?
quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)
This is the same thing she is saying in GC 614! Another statement:
quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}
In addition to being contrary to God's character, it's entirely unnecessary for God to accomplish destruction by doing anything other than removing His protection. Underestimating the powerful destructive forces from which God is constantly protecting us, minimizes its importance.
EGW tells us that all that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while hear on earth. Yet you state that Christ acted entirely differently than the God of the Old Testament. This contradicts Ellen White's statement, as it would have us knowing something about God which we cannot know (since it was not revealed in Christ's earthly life).
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