I don't think God required the violence of the cross. He did require Christ to suffer for Himself the treatment which we earned because of sin, which was infinitely worse than the physical suffering He endured. That is the "violence" of God's wrath against sin.

The agony which Christ suffered was the mental anguish of sin. This is not something God did to Him. All God did was continue to be God. It was Him bearing our sin, and the impact of that upon Him, that caused His death. All of the violence involved here was because of sin, not any special action on God's part.

God's wrath is His giving up the sinner. Notice Jesus cried out, "My God, my God; why hast thou forsaken me. Although even being forsaken is not something God actually does, but is the effect that sin creates on the mind. God was actually closer to Jesus on the cross than at any other time of His life. He left heaven to be with His Son at Golgatha, shrouding His glory, so the miserable creatures killing His Son wouldn't be destroyed.

What if the Jews accepted Christ? Would they have to crucify Him?

No, the Romans could have done that by themselves. But then, if the Jews had accepted Christ, maybe the Romans would have repented too.

I've thought about that, and the best answer I've come up with is that they would have to sacrifice Him as the Lamb of God.

Why? For what purpose? God didn't need a sacrifice. The sacrifice was for them. If they accept Him, there's no need for them to kill Him. Actually there never was a need for them to kill Him. They killed Him because they hated Him.

A lot less violent physically, but would still meet the requirement of Him taking our stripes so we can be healed. He can avoid much of Violence#2, but still get the fullness of Violence#1.

There's no arbitrary requirement for Christ to suffer violence in order for us to be healed. That doesn't make any sense, does it? Look at what Isaiah says:

quote:

---

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

---

It says we esteemed Him smitted of God, but He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. In other words, we thought God was doing something to Him, but it turns out, it was us! As Walt Kelly said in Pogo, "We have met the enemy, and he is us!"

Tom, the physical abuse Jesus received at the hands of the Romans was actually inconsequential compared to the soul anguish He suffered on Gethsemane and on the cross. I believe His soul anguish was caused by something our heavenly Father did.

I believe much of what the Father did was a mystery. We cannot totally understand it or completely explain it. We know He prevented Jesus from sensing His divine presence, and that this caused both of them great pain and sorrow. But there was more, much more, going on, things our dull minds will never be able to comprehend. We short change the cross, Christ, and ourselves if we think that’s all there was to Jesus’ soul anguish.

We know Jesus felt the woe and wrath of God, that He realized God’s hatred toward sin. Jesus had become sin for us and He felt the full brunt of God’s anger against sin – as if He were sin itself. We cannot know how much God hates sin, but we know He treated Jesus as if He were sin itself.

I cannot imagine God cutting sin any slack. I cannot imagine Him withholding one ounce of hatred and anger. I see, with limited perception, God unleashing all His pent up wrath and anger. To minimize how God treated Jesus on the cross is to undermine how much He hates sin.

And Jesus endured the combined wrath of God against sin as if He were sin itself. If we view things in this manner, rather than remembering how much the Father and Son love each other, I believe we can better understand just how much wrath Jesus really felt at the hands of an angry God.

It is easier for me to envision God taking out His hatred and vengeance upon sin than it is for me to imagine Him taking it out on Jesus. As such, I cannot begin to fathom the soul anguish Jesus suffered. Nor can I imagine God withholding His anger, or limiting His vengeance for any reason.

Such a display of wrath against sin is necessary for the salvation of man and the eternal security of the universe. Had God held back even one ounce of His wrath He and Jesus would have come short of saving us, and the entire universe would have been in peril. God could not risk losing everything by showing sin (i.e., Jesus) any sympathy on the cross.

Thank you for communicating your thoughts on this. This was exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for. You have clearly articulated several key elements which we should understand.

I would like to start a thread on what you've written here, quoting from your post here. Is that all right with you?

By all means, Tom. Be my quest. I look forward to studying it further.

Thanks, MM.