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Re: Does God require violence?
#17124
02/22/06 03:54 AM
02/22/06 03:54 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Did God require violence in order to solve the problem of rebellion? Is violence a core, fundamental principle of God's government? Did sin introduce a new element into God's government which required violence in order to re-establish it? Is the only way God can fix rebellion by violent means?
This was my original post, MM. I would appreciate your thoughts on these questions. I know you think God is destructive, and is blood-thirsty for vengeance (I'm quoting you here), but I'm not really wanting to debate this, as we've done this in other threads. What I'm asking is, is where did the violence you claim is necessary for God to use to put down rebellion come from? Was it always in God's character, but just hidden? It is the case that God appears to be gracious and kind, but if you cross Him in the least detail, you will suffer the full brunt of His wrath, including being subject to torture?
Or was God's violence a new element which was only introduced by sin?
Also, what of the following quote:
quote:
God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)
If God does not overcome rebellion by compelling power, how can you assert that He does so by violence? If God's government is moral, and truth and love are the prevailing power, than how can violence hold that place?
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17125
02/22/06 03:58 AM
02/22/06 03:58 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Also, I do not believe nature, if left to itself, would single us out with the intention of killing us to satisfy its lust for human blood.
Hmm. I must not have explained this well. I'll try again.
If sin is powerful enough to cause start millions and billions of light years away, and powerful enough to lead to black holes, it is capable of unimaginable destruction. Does this make sense? I'll stop here and see if it does, and if so try to proceed.
If you think I'm saying that nature singles us out with the intention of killing us to satisfy us for its lust for human blood, you are either being obtuse or sarcastic. Which is it?
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17126
02/23/06 03:00 AM
02/23/06 03:00 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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quote:
What I'm asking is, is where did the violence you claim is necessary for God to use to put down rebellion come from? Was it always in God's character, but just hidden? It is the case that God appears to be gracious and kind, but if you cross Him in the least detail, you will suffer the full brunt of His wrath, including being subject to torture? Or was God's violence a new element which was only introduced by sin?
The wrath of Jesus is love. Jesus is love. Therefore, His wrath is eternal – not a new element. Yes, it is a "strange act", but not new or ungodly. The angels understand this attribute of Jesus’ love, and praise Him for it. Obviously, then, our understanding of His wrath is skewed if we do not feel the same way about it as do the holy angels. What some of us find despicable, holy angels and the redeemed find praiseworthy. Listen to how Sister White describes it:
EW 294, 295
I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Here’s how John saw the response of holy angels during the outpouring of the seven last plagues:
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
Punishing and destroying unsaved sinners and evil-doers in the lake of fire is not a form of force or compulsion. It is merely the execution of justice. Jesus will not punish and destroy them in the lake of fire until after they consent to it, until after they admit their guilt and worthiness. Again, listen to how it is described:
GC 670-672
Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence. {GC 670.2}
… With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." {GC 670.3}
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17127
02/23/06 03:41 AM
02/23/06 03:41 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
If sin is powerful enough to cause start millions and billions of light years away, and powerful enough to lead to black holes, it is capable of unimaginable destruction. Does this make sense? I'll stop here and see if it does, and if so try to proceed.
Tom, black holes are just a theory, not fact. Whether or not the universe is waxing or waning has not been proven. It is mere speculation. Besides, sin is not a person or thing that can go about working rebellion and destruction. Sin is the transgression of the law. Period!
OHC 141
The only definition of sin in the Word of God is given us in 1 John 3:4. "Sin is the transgression of the law." {OHC 141.3}
Again, sin is not a person or place. Sin is simply any thought, word, motive, feeling, or deed that violates the law of God. My sinning here on earth cannot undo galaxies billions of light years away. If the physical universe is suffering as you think and believe, it is because Jesus has given Satan, a sinner, permission do it – not sin.
quote:
If you think I'm saying that nature singles us out with the intention of killing us to satisfy us for its lust for human blood, you are either being obtuse or sarcastic. Which is it?
Tom, I am being neither obtuse nor sarcastic. I’m sorry you didn’t already know that. Here’s what you posted about it earlier:
quote:
The truth is that, indeed, nature would destroy us, and God does restrain it, like a wild beast.
I agree that nature would implode upon itself were it not for Jesus holding it in check. But I disagree that it singles us out like a terrorist. Our death would be nothing more than collateral damage. But Jesus directs the forces of nature to fulfill His will. He does not leave it to haphazard chance. Jesus uses nature like the US military uses precision strike bombs. Again, here is how the SOP describes it:
quote:
10 (Ps. 27:5; 91:9, 10; Isa. 2:17-21; see EGW on Gen. 6:17; Rev. 20:9, 10, 14). God the Refuge of His People.--Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven, everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth, will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace, and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock, thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth, will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life. But as in the days of the great Deluge Noah was preserved in the ark that God had prepared for him, so in these days of destruction and calamity, God will be the refuge of His believing ones . . . [Ps. 91:9, 10; 27:5 quoted] (Letter 258, 1907). {7BC 946.7}
Destruction From Earth and Sky.--The hand of Omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish His purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth His weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. . . . {7BC 946.8}
Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth, which He will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish His purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God (ST Jan. 3, 1878). {7BC 946.9}
(Ps. 144:5, 6; Nahum 1:5, 6.) Destruction by Water and Fire.--In the bowels of the earth God has in reserve the weapons that He will use to destroy the sinful race. Since the Flood, God has used, to destroy wicked cities, both the water and the fire that are concealed in the earth. In the final conflagration God will in His wrath send lightning from heaven that will unite with the fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and pour forth streams of lava [Nahum 1:5, 6; Ps. 144:5, 6 quoted] (MS 21, 1902). {7BC 946.10}
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17128
02/22/06 08:21 PM
02/22/06 08:21 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom:What I'm asking is, is where did the violence you claim is necessary for God to use to put down rebellion come from? Was it always in God's character, but just hidden? It is the case that God appears to be gracious and kind, but if you cross Him in the least detail, you will suffer the full brunt of His wrath, including being subject to torture? Or was God's violence a new element which was only introduced by sin? I will respond to your comments, but before doing so, you didn't directly respond to all my quesitons (you did respond directly to the last one). They were yes/no type questions. From what you did write, I'll guess your answers are as follows: The violence necessary for God to put down rebellion was always in God's character. Yes, it is the case that if you cross God in the least detail you will suffer the full brunt of His wrath, including being subject to torture. No new element was introduced by sin. Is this correct?MM:The wrath of Jesus is love. Jesus is love. Therefore, His wrath is eternal – not a new element. God's wrath is His giving over the sinner to the result of his choice. This is simply God's respecting a moral agent's free will.Yes, it is a "strange act", but not new or ungodly. The angels understand this attribute of Jesus’ love, and praise Him for it. Obviously, then, our understanding of His wrath is skewed if we do not feel the same way about it as do the holy angels. What some of us find despicable, holy angels and the redeemed find praiseworthy. Listen to how Sister White describes it: EW 294, 295 I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1} Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2} We can't just cherry pick certain quotes on a subject and ignore others. We need to take all of what is inpired and compare text with text. Consider DA 764: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
This is describing the same event. Here she explains what she means when she speaks of God's wrath and how God destroys the wicked. Let her explain what she means by the phrases she uses by comparing text with text.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17129
02/22/06 08:25 PM
02/22/06 08:25 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom:If sin is powerful enough to cause start millions and billions of light years away, and powerful enough to lead to black holes, it is capable of unimaginable destruction. Does this make sense? I'll stop here and see if it does, and if so try to proceed. MM:Tom, black holes are just a theory, not fact. They can be located by telescopes. They have been photographed. This page talks about them: http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/dnetGOjg/Black/Holes.htm and discusses how to locate one Whether or not the universe is waxing or waning has not been proven. It is mere speculation. Besides, sin is not a person or thing that can go about working rebellion and destruction. Sin is the transgression of the law. Period! Obviously sin can cause destruction in the natural realm. Even if you wish to deny that black holes exist, you cannot deny that stars are burning out. Surely God did not create them to go out. You don't believe this, do you? So why are they going out? Because of sin. This is but a small indication of sin's power. The greater one recognizes to be sin's power, the greater the recognition of God's power, which keeps sin's power in check.Tom: If you think I'm saying that nature singles us out with the intention of killing us to satisfy us for its lust for human blood, you are either being obtuse or sarcastic. Which is it? MM, I am being neither obtuse nor sarcastic. I’m sorry you didn’t already know that. Here’s what you posted about it earlier: "The truth is that, indeed, nature would destroy us, and God does restrain it, like a wild beast." The "wild beast" comment was a remark from you I was quoting! Even though you were being either obtuse or sarchastic, there was a germ of truth in your comment, so I quoted you. This still doesn't explain the "lust for human blood" comment. That was either obtuse or sarchastic, wasn't it?MM:I agree that nature would implode upon itself were it not for Jesus holding it in check. But I disagree that it singles us out like a terrorist. Another obtuse or sarchastic comment. They're multiplying!MM:Our death would be nothing more than collateral damage. But Jesus directs the forces of nature to fulfill His will. He does not leave it to haphazard chance. Jesus uses nature like the US military uses precision strike bombs. Again, here is how the SOP describes it: quote:
10 (Ps. 27:5; 91:9, 10; Isa. 2:17-21; see EGW on Gen. 6:17; Rev. 20:9, 10, 14). God the Refuge of His People.--Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven, everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth, will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace, and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock, thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth, will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life. But as in the days of the great Deluge Noah was preserved in the ark that God had prepared for him, so in these days of destruction and calamity, God will be the refuge of His believing ones . . . [Ps. 91:9, 10; 27:5 quoted] (Letter 258, 1907). {7BC 946.7}
You are confusing the work of the enemy with the work of God.
quote:
The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.(GC 614)
God withdraws His protection, and Satan plunges the earth into one great, final trouble. Consider the following quote:
quote:
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),-- what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath!The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. (GC 36, 37)
Many times the Spirit of Prophecy compares the destruction of Jerusalem with the final time of trouble. We have an entire chapter which we can study on the subject! Over twenty pages! There's no reason for us to misunderstand what's happening here.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17130
02/23/06 04:04 PM
02/23/06 04:04 PM
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SDA
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Tom, once again we have reached an impasse on this topic. I believe Jesus accomplishes His will in one of two ways: 1) He commands holy angels to employ the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners, or 2) He permits evil angels to employ the forces of nature to punsish and destroy unsaved sinners.
You disagree.
By the way, I was not being sarcastic in my characterization of sin. I truly do not believe sin is a person or thing that can think and behave or excercise power like a rational being. Nor do I believe it about nature. I'm sorry you thought otherwise.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17132
02/23/06 04:37 PM
02/23/06 04:37 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, once again we have reached an impasse on this topic.
You've kind of morphed the topic I wanted to discuss into one you wanted to, which I obliged, while asking you discuss the topic I introduced. You're still invited to.
Here's what I'm getting at. The main mechanism that God has for dealing with the sin problem is the cross. I trust you agree with this. If not, I can substantiate it.
Now the cross was a violent thing, there's no doubt about that. But who instigated the violence? Was this violence something that God required? This is what I'm wanting to get at, not whether God sent fiery serpents or such like.
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Re: Does God require violence?
#17133
02/23/06 08:40 PM
02/23/06 08:40 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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California, USA
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Just a quickie.
I don't think God required the violence of the cross. He did require Christ to suffer for Himself the treatment which we earned because of sin, which was infinitely worse than the physical suffering He endured. That is the "violence" of God's wrath against sin.
What if the Jews accepted Christ? Would they have to crucify Him? I've thought about that, and the best answer I've come up with is that they would have to sacrifice Him as the Lamb of God. A lot less violent physically, but would still meet the requirement of Him taking our stripes so we can be healed. He can avoid much of Violence#2, but still get the fullness of Violence#1.
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