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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172473
03/19/15 02:41 AM
03/19/15 02:41 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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Kland, Why are you insisting on taking this thread off topic?
We aren't talking about Green or KJV ONLY.
Yes, I see Luke (the writer of the book of Acts) taking special care to let us know it was the Gentiles asking for Paul to speak to them the next Sabbath, it was not the Jews.
Forget about Bible versions, and trying to defend every version, and just look at Luke's use of the words. He clearly makes a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Once that is established -- then chose whatever Bible version most accurately portrays Luke's original words.
Isn't that what any earnest Bible student would do?
World English Version WEB
"So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath."
Hebrew Names Bible (HNV)
"So when the Yehudim went out of the synagogue, the Goyim begged that these words might be preached to them the next Shabbat".
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172474
03/19/15 04:15 AM
03/19/15 04:15 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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So...Just what is the statement under discussion? Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts -- These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!. Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians. 1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3 2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day. 3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross. 4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God 5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant 6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel. 7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross. I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position. point #1 1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3 Anti-Sabbath arguments insist that a Sabbath command is no where to be found in the book of Genesis. That in Gen 2, God was simply ending His work of creation and blessing it, not establishing any weekly 7th day Sabbath. And that the weekly Sabbath wasn't in existence until it was given to the Israelites during the Exodus. Yet the truth about the Sabbath’s existence in Genesis has been acknowledged by both Adventists and non-Adventists alike. FIRST-- we have a seven day week. The 7‑day week is older than the Israelites, as it was observed by the Sumerians and Babylonians. While attempts have been made to institute other lengths of a "week", they have all failed and mankind reverts back to the seven day weekly cycle. God created the week; a seven day weekly cycle. SECONDLY: The fourth commandment points back to creation account. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Is the Sabbath in Genesis? The fourth commandment answered the question. In Genesis God blessed the seventh day and sanctified (set it apart for holy purposes): Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Compare that with the fourth commandment Exodus 20:10-11 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God. (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. The question, “Is the Sabbath in Genesis?” is fully answered in the fourth commandment itself. Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Now when we return to the commandment, verse 10 reads: The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day. Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day. THIRD: Jesus says, “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.” –Mark 2:27. The Sabbath was made for human beings.
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: dedication]
#172483
03/19/15 07:59 PM
03/19/15 07:59 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Kland, Why are you insisting on taking this thread off topic? Well, you throw an off-topic in there and I'm merely refuting the error.
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: dedication]
#172487
03/19/15 11:08 PM
03/19/15 11:08 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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So...Just what is the statement under discussion? Irrefutable evidence of 7 statements that start getting fleshed out in the first two posts -- These statements are an example of claims made by the majority of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!. Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians. 1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3 2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day. 3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross. 4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God 5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant 6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel. 7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross. I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.
point #1
1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
Anti-Sabbath arguments insist that a Sabbath command is no where to be found in the book of Genesis. That in Gen 2, God was simply ending His work of creation and blessing it, not establishing any weekly 7th day Sabbath. And that the weekly Sabbath wasn't in existence until it was given to the Israelites during the Exodus.
Yet the truth about the Sabbath’s existence in Genesis has been acknowledged by both Adventists and non-Adventists alike.
FIRST-- we have a seven day week.
The 7‑day week is older than the Israelites, as it was observed by the Sumerians and Babylonians.
While attempts have been made to institute other lengths of a "week", they have all failed and mankind reverts back to the seven day weekly cycle.
God created the week; a seven day weekly cycle.
SECONDLY: The fourth commandment points back to creation account.
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Is the Sabbath in Genesis? The fourth commandment answered the question. In Genesis God blessed the seventh day and sanctified (set it apart for holy purposes):
Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Compare that with the fourth commandment
Exodus 20:10-11
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God. (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The question, “Is the Sabbath in Genesis?” is fully answered in the fourth commandment itself.
Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Now when we return to the commandment, verse 10 reads:
The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The fourth commandment says God blessed the seventh day, and then says that the seventh day “is the sabbath” day. The words “is the” makes it ever clear that the seventh day of Genesis 2:3 is the same seventh day of the fourth commandment, which God himself says that that is the “sabbath” day.
THIRD:
Jesus says, “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.” –Mark 2:27.
The Sabbath was made for human beings.
All good points. And notice that it is the 'same word' in Ex 20:11 for "sanctified" and "made holy" that you see in Gen 2:3. The 7th day is said to be sanctified, set apart in both texts and in Ex 20:8-11 God "could have said" something like "I did a lot of amazing things in the past when I created life on earth ,, so now I am going to bless the 7th day, set it apart- sanctify it so that you will not forget all the things I did when I made the world". Instead of that God said "He already DID" bless and sanctify and set that day apart and that the Gen 2:l-3 facts "alone" established the fact already. I have the irrefutable list and summary as follows The "irrefutable" point is as follows
1. The majority of eve pro-sunday scholarship argue that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant and applicable to all saints to this very day. So this point is not unique to 7th day Sabbath keeping Christians.
2. The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and so the term "Law of God" must be understood in context of the author and his contemporary readers.
3. The quote of Jer 31:31-33 by Paul in Heb 8 affirms the same point and is affirmed by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship.
4. D.L. Moody's statement, C.H. Spurgeon's statement and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" statement are good representative statements for the way this pro-Ten-Commandments POV was being presented in the 1800's at the time that Adventists fully accepted the 4th commandment unedited.
5. There are a number of texts both OT and NT that help explain why it is that even pro-Sunday scholarship admits to the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God - binding on all mankind (even saints) from Eden to this very day. Notice that I say "most of" the pro-sunday scholars. I never deny that there will always be agroup that will not agree with them. So then it is a point about objectivity where I show that even among their own pro-sunday scholarship - there are certain Bible details so glaringly obvious that both sides of the debate agree to them. in Christ, Bob
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172657
03/31/15 04:55 AM
03/31/15 04:55 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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2. The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and so the term "Law of God" must be understood in context of the author and his contemporary readers. The author is Jeremiah, a prophet of God, living just prior and during Jerusalem’s fall to Babylon. He warns of coming doom. Why is trouble coming upon God’s people? Jer. 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. What law were they rejecting? Jer. 26:4 Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, It was God’s law that was “set before them”. It was God’s law they were rejecting and sinking into moral darkness, and thus it is God’s law that is promised to be written upon heart and mind making them willing and able to walk in it’s precepts. Yes, there are people who believe it is the same moral law: Matthew Henry’s Concise CommentaryJeremiah 31:27-24 “In Heb 8:8,9, this place is quoted as the sum of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Not, I will give them a new law; for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit, as formerly written in the tables of stone. The Lord will, by his grace, make his people willing people in the day of his power.” C.H.Spurgeon
THE LAW WRITTEN IN THE HEART
NO. 1687 “And I will write it in their hearts.” Just as the Holy Words were engraved upon stone, so shall they now be written in the heart, in the handwriting of the Lord, Himself. Mark that the Law is written not on the heart, but in the heart, in the very texture and constitution of it, so that into the center and core of the soul, obedience shall be infused as a vital principle! Thus, you see, the Lord has selected for His tablets that which is the seat of life.... God says that, instead of writing His Holy Law on stones which may be left at a distance—He will write it on the heart, which must always be within us. Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Notice that God does not here state that he will cancel or no longer require his law to be observed, but that he will achieve the observance of his holy law by an utterly new method. That new method would be by the means of "the new birth" (John 1:3-7). A new heart would be created in obedient believers, and this would enable a more acceptable obedience to Divine Law. However, in looking through what other scholar's write, it was sad to see how much effort has been put in to the idea that somehow God's grace changed God's law. It's better to stay with the Bible itself -- The point can be made without the scholars -- Jeremiah and the people he witnessed to, understood the law as God's law which was set before them, not some "changed law". And it was this law that God would write upon their hearts.
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