2 Corinthians 3.12 refers to seeing Jesus the Messiah in scripture. It's not talking about all manner of possibilities of transforming clear words into something mystical.

Actually the text shows that the old system was fading away under the light of the reality of Jesus. The symbolic rituals that pointed forward to Christ, fade away under the reality that is Jesus Christ.

Moses put a veil over his face because it was REFLECTING the glory of God and frightening the people. (Ex. 34:29-34) But that reflective glory soon faded. Yet Christ, who is "God with us" (Matt. 1:23)was here. His glory is NOT reflected glory, it is the reality!

It was never God’s intention that people read the same passages of scripture and come away with different ideas about what it is saying. God wants us all to be likeminded about His Word.

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

But if it's true that God speaks in "dark speeches and riddles" as Elle suggests -- how could there ever be any unity?

It's not God's fault that there is so much disunion.
He gave us scripture to be a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path. (Ps 119:105)

One of the major reasons why people have different ideas concerning what the Bible says is that they use different rules or standards for interpreting it.
There are key principles which are essential to understand and apply if there is to be any hope of Christians getting to the truth when they read the Bible.
To throw it wide open to spiritualizing anything and everything in scripture, well -- anything and everything will be touted as truth with utter departure from truth.

1. RULE ONE interpretation varies according to the literary form of the text involved.

The Bible has many different literary forms -- like historical accounts (such and such happened to so and so), there are lists, genealogies, sermons, prayers, parables, prophecies, commands, allegories, etc.
It's one thing to find the "hidden meaning" in a parable, or allegory, but we DO NOT use that same form of interpretation for historical accounts and commands.
Finding the PRINCIPLE being taught behind an historical account or command, is very different from trying to spiritualize it. A principle is intrinsically tied with the event or command, not some mystical other realm of thought.

2. Symbols --
The Bible abounds in parables, symbolic representations and figures of speech. However, that does not automatically make everything in scripture a riddle or "figure of speech".

The literal principle of interpretation, is that no mystical or hidden meaning should be attached to the words, but that they should be taken in their most obvious sense.


The Sabbath commandment is NOT a figure of speech. It is a literal command to cease from work on the seventh day, for it is holy time, sanctified and blessed by God -- for mankind. (Gen. 2:1-3, Ex. 20 8-11, Mark 2:27-28)
Any further applications that are made for this command, do NOT negate the very literal, practical reality of the command itself.

Creation is NOT an allegory, it is literal "morning and evening is the first day" etc. Many people have spiritualized away the whole historical content of the book of Genesis -- going farther and farther from truth.

When scripture uses symbols it should be obvious --

When Jesus referred to Himself as the "bread of life" (John 6:35) any sane person recognizes that as a "figure of speech", for Jesus is saying LIKE food is crucial to physical life, a persons vital relationship with Him is crucial to eternal life.

AMEN!

All about Jesus-- not only Him as a Messiah(the anointed one), but His work of Justification(=Passover), His work of sanctification(=Pentecost), His work of Intercession(=Priesthood), His work of Atonement-Redemption(=law of Jubilee), His work of Rulership&Judgment(=Priesthood), His Laws in His government, His right to rule and establish His laws on earth, His right to forgive & show mercy(=law of Jubilee and other laws), etc…

This is what Moses has written about which reveals Jesus in all its truths, ways, and His works.

Hmmmm…..You mean “spiritual” right! I never use the word “mystical”.

Dedication, it is not I who said the following :

a) “the law[Torah] is Spiritual; but I am carnal”. Rom 7:14

b)but the Lord Himself who said He speaks in “dark Speeches”(Num 12:8 = in riddles to be solve).

c)that the old Covenant or law was Types and Shadows.(Col 2:17; Heb 8:5; 10:1) of things to come;

d)that these(the law) were teaching tools until the appointed time came.(Gal 4:2-4, 1Cor 3:1-2)

e)It is not I who created the language gap between the Lord who it Spiritual and Man who is “earthy”(1Cor 15:47-49) aka “carnal”(Rom 7:14; 1Cor 3:1-3) aka “soulish aka natural man”(1Cor 2:14).

f)It is not I but Jesus who spoke always in parable(symbolic language using familiar things like He did in the Law) to the crowd who were just “babes”.


Yes, I always said the same thing – the old system was written in Symbolic language (Types & Shadows). Yes these fades away as we come closer to behold the glory of Lord.

In the pass, the Lord required the “Passover Level of faith Church” :

-who were the Israelites under the old Covenant who where just “babes” who didn’t yet receive the Holy Spirit (Ex 20:19) who couldn’t understand mature spiritual things yet(1Cor 2:14)]

-to keep these types & shadows (who were "elemental" things that taught them some dimension of truth fitted for their level of faith) Gal 4:1-9

-that would teach them some glimpse of spiritual dimension.

This is exactly the context of the quote you are disputing that Paul started in verse 1 by saying AV 1C 3:1 “ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.”

Paul couldn’t speak in “spiritual” language to those that were still only “babes in Christ”. Paul had to use “carnal” language fitting to their level … like the Type & Shadows are design to be. This “elemental”(term used in Gal 4) language meet the “babes in Christ” in their level of understanding. Paul refers to this again in Heb 9: AV 10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.”

The time of reformation (= appointed time in Gal 4) has come when the Church moved up to the next level of Faith, the “Pentecost Level of faith”, when they received the Holy Spirit. Now, having grown into a “teenager” level of faith, the Holy Spirit can teach us more mature stuff -- what these Type and Shadow of the Law meant and what spiritual realm these points to and how to apply them in the Lord’s Kingdom in His Spirit.

In summary – when they (the Church) were Babes the Types and Shadows of the Law was their teacher. Now the Church have grown into the Pentecost level, they are now under the NEW TEACHER and new governor(=Holy Spirit Gal 4:2).

Conclusion - Now that we have grown into the Pentecost level of faith, we do not need to play with "elemental" things (keep the Types & Shadows) with was our Old Teacher that only can teach us basic elemental things(Gal 4:1-9).

I agree the people were afraid – afraid of what? Afraid to have their flesh die. The veils represents the flesh that needs to be torn = die.

There were 3 veils in the temple. This shows us the 3 levels of faith an individual has to go thru where a veil has to be torn at each level to enter the next. Everyone is afraid to have their flesh torn and die to pass thru the next level. That’s the fear the Israelites had when they saw the glory of God shine in Moses face.

Moses had passed thru the 3rd veil (Tabernacle Level of Faith) and the glory he beheld and reflected in his face was way too much for anyone who had only recently passed thru the 1st veil (Passover Level of Faith).

We see this when the Israelites were facing the 2nd veil by which it was too soon and were incapable of passing thru it(=Pentecost Level of faith). They were afraid there also (Ex 20:20) to have their flesh die then when they heard the Lord’s voice for themselves. So they expressed it by saying “don’t let God speak to us, lest we die”(Ex 20:19).

To summarize -- Each of these 3 veils involve a death of the flesh in an increasing way. And at each death(tearing of the veil) and entering to the next compartment -- the glory of God shines brighter upon us.

These veils hide God's glory and protect those who are not yet ready to see Him as He is.

The above might appear to some as if I have nailed the Feasts or the ceremonial sacrifices to the cross; but I haven't. What I'm saying above is the Law was written in types and shadows and was the teacher for Israel when they were "babes" and still didn't have the Holy Spirit to teach them spiritual things.

The spiritual application of the Law that it points to were always in existance since the Creation of Man till today.

It is true that Jesus was the "Anti-type" of many of the laws but we are the BODY of Christ and we are to follow His steps to the cross too and become “living sacrifices” as He was and “die” too. Paul even said we are to “die” daily.

So the fulfillment of the laws doesn’t stop with Jesus. What was fulfilled by Jesus was the fulfillment of the HEAD part.

The fulfillment of the sacrificial laws needs to be also fulfilled in His BODY part too --- which is US His Church -- The “anti-type” of what all the sacrificial services is pointing to still needs to be fulfilled in US.

---->Every time someone since Adam’s fall till today, who accepts Jesus(=circumcised), gets out of “Mama Egypt”(=bondage of sin), and are baptized(=dies), is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Passover.

---->Every time someone since Adams till today, who listen to the Holy Spirit and receives His teachings and gets the law written on his HEART instead of having it outside on STONES is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Pentecost.

---->Every time someone since Adam’s fall till today, overcome and cease their own works, is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Tabernacle.

No, I meant mystical.

There is the literal commands on how to keep the feasts.
There are spiritual applications drawn from activities of the feasts.
Then there is mystical interpretation -- saying all the laws for feast keeping are still binding, we are to keep the feasts, but not actually.

The thing is -- those laws were very specific and very literal.
Those laws are NO longer binding.
Now we do draw many spiritual lessons which increases our understanding of what Christ has done, as well as spiritual lessons for our lives. BUT THAT IS NOT keeping the feasts according to command given scripture.

To say we are to keep the feasts, and that the laws for the feasts are still binding, but we need NOT follow the actual commands or actually keep the feasts, is getting into some very mystical interpretations.

The straightforward message:
--We no longer need to observe the feasts; their laws are no longer binding.
--We do need to study them and find the spiritual meanings they were pointing too and apply that to our lives.


The danger of mystical interpretations-- will they do the same with 7th day Sabbath?
The Seventh day Sabbath has a very literal command
The seventh day Sabbath also has spiritual lessons.

Now the mystical interpretation says: Yes the Sabbath law is still binding, but just throw out the literal 7th day Sabbath and say you are keeping the Sabbath because you understand the spiritual applications.

The spiritual interpretation: Yes, the Sabbath law is still binding. Set apart the whole day Saturday, from Friday sunset, to Saturday sunset. And remember to reflect on the spiritual applications as well.

The one with it's mystical interpretation has just done away with the Sabbath.

I agree and it was necessary to teach babes in such ways because they couldn’t understand spiritual things.(Gal 4:1-9, 1Cor 3:1; Heb 8:5; 9:10; 10:1; Col 2:17; etc… )

It’s ironic that we, as SDAs supposively are LAW ABIDING believers, say such thing. Which is totally contrary to what Jesus said : AV Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

My understanding from the fullfillment of the cross and Pentecost, Jesus is NOT fulfilling the LITTERAL aspect of the LAW, but the Spiritual aspect these points to. Also, LAW here is not the 10Cs but the TORAH.

For sure, now that the Corporate Church have grown and went beyond the Passover level of faith and entered the Pentecost level of faith and received the Holy Spirit as our New Teacher(Gal 4:2-4), we should seek to understand beyond the LETTER (literal types and shadows). But their spiritual meaning(what Jesus meant with them at the first place) that these point to.

The Spiritual application of these that Jesus has been busy fulfilling -- is still binding. Was binding since Adam and will remain binding until all creation is subjected and put under the feet of Jesus. The law(Torah) will not pass until all is fulfilled.


I agree we are not obligated to keep the types and shadows – the LITTERAL form that the law was given in.


I agree to the above except the bolded and underlined section.

Concerning your second point, the reality is, we do not study them(or hardly) for we say they are not important or relevant to our lives anymore. Those that does, most only read and understand the LETTER of it and do not understand the SPIRIT of it. If I were to put you on the spot(but won't), I bet you wouldn’t even come close to explain the meaning of Pentecost or the 8 day feasts of Tabernacle. Most have no clue of their meanings or the meaning of other basic laws. Because, like the Jews, they only see the LETTER of the Law.


I will acknowledge that my English and communication skills are lacking. But I think with the number of examples I have given by using and linking to common NT concept and texts – it was far from being “mystical”.

No one here including yourself have shown scriptures taken in its proper context that can prove the whole law(Torah) is not binding today. Not even the most famous Col 2:14 can be used for that end. On the other hand I have supplied lots of scriptures to support my points.


What transpire above is Fear. You are afraid to look beyond what you currently understand. That is typical and the nature of the flesh.

By ignoring scriptures that contradict what you believe, and nailing laws to the cross, you have shown yourself to not “live by EVERY word that proceeded by the mouth of God".

You haven't shown that you understand the feasts nor what the Feasts Sabbaths, yearly Sabbaths, and the Jubilee Sabbath means. You haven’t shown yet that it is in your interest to understand these either -- probaby because of the fear shown in the quote above.

8 Days Laws

You also want to ignore all 8th days laws. Here's a lists of them for everyone to meditate upon:

1-Circumcision : 7 days + 1 = 8 (the 7 days count started on any days of the week depending on the day the person was born. This is the pattern all other 8days laws follows below.) Circumcision(of the heart) is a Passover requirement. By law anyone that is not circumcized cannot eat the passover lamb = become a Kingdom citizen. Is anyone going to say that this law is not binding anymore? I don't think so.

2-Consecration of the Priests : 7 days + 1 = 8 (here the first day count was on a Sunday making the 8thday count a Sunday)

3-Pentecost : 7weekly Sabbaths x 7 + 1 = 50, (the 7 weeks Sabbath count started on the first day of the week. The 50th day always landed on a Sunday = 1st day of the week aka 8thday) Note the Pentecost day was to be kept as a Sabbath.

4-Feast of Tabernacle : 7days + 1 = 8 (Here this Feast depending on which day the 7th month started. The 1st day and the 8th day were to be kept as a Sabbath.)

5-Jubilee Year : 7years Sabbaths x 7 + 1 year = 50, (this is the same pattern as Pentecost by which Pentecost was based on the circumcision patterns above. The 50th year(which is the 1st year of the next cycle) and all the 7th years were to be kept as a Sabbath year. The debt-bond servants were to be released every 7th year and their debt were put on hold (not canceled) and resumed to pay their debt with their servitude on the following year until the Jubilee. It was on the Jubilee year that all debt were cancelled and everyone was restored back to their inheritance. Of course, this was pointing to the plan of redemption that the Lord has put the world under. However, on the prophetic application level 1 year equals 1000 years. That’s why the Lord has grouped the coming 1000 years as a Millennium in Revelation. In that book, it says after the first [Sabbatical] Millennium comes the White throne of judgment where all the sins will be judge and equated to a debt that needs to be restituted according to the judgments of the laws(Torah). Then the plan of salvation will continue its course according to what the Lord has shown in His law of Jubilee.

We have above 5 explicit 8th days laws. Here's are things we can note:

-they are all based after a Sabbath type of cycle.
-all the 3 feasts are represented in one or more of these laws.
-many of these 8th days laws are also known to be a Sabbath : Pentecost(1st & 8th day), Feast of Tabernacle(1st & 8th day), and the Jubilee year(1st year = 8th day type). So the Lord has brought an application of the Sabbath on these three 8th days laws.

Will you investigate these further with the Lord? Will you seek what the Lord wants us to understand with these laws? This is the attitude we should have and I'm sure with time you will come to have it also. I believe the Lord will remove all fear in His good timing so we won't be afraid to inquire to the Lord about it and die by passing thru that veil to grow into the next level of faith.


Priesthood Work Harder on the weekly Sabbath more than any other weekly days

Another thing you need to consider in your understanding of the your LITERAL weekly Sabbath application -- why the Priests (that you and all of us should be) in the law worked more on the weekly Sabbath than any other days? That alone will put a huge dent in our current understanding of the LITTERAL weekly Sabbath.

Blessings to you and all others in their spiritual walk and growth (by which Passover & Pentecost & Tabernacle represents) in reaching the promise land and receiving their inheritance: to abide(tabernacle) in the Lord's house and He abiding in our Body Temple House.

Umm, so because some of the ceremonial sabbaths fell on the eighth day, the Commandment to "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." (qadash, 6942- "a verb meaning to be set apart") is changed, so now we are to keep Sunday "set apart" from the other six days? The Seventh Day is "set apart" from all other days; therefore, it is set apart from the ceremonial sabbaths as well.

Incidentally, "wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."(qadash, 6942- "a verb meaning to be set apart") It was God who "set apart" the Seventh Day. What part of your three? or is it seven? or is it eight? step journey to spiritual maturity requires us to "set apart" a day that He never "hallowed"?

Why not keep the ceremonial sabbaths "spiritually" on the seventh day. Then the Ten Commandments could remain intact?

Good, helpful summary of the 8th day law Elle. I've never given that much thought. I've been interested in broadening my understanding of the 8th day at the end of the Feast of Tabernacles but hadn't gone to the trouble of reviewing all of the similar occurances. This will help. If you have any thoughts please post them.