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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176110
08/17/15 07:01 PM
08/17/15 07:01 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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I do not know where you answered it unless you are saying it doesn't really matter.
But I don't see why you are asking your question because you say, along with not knowing whether harm comes from Jesus or satan, you say some of the time, Jesus withdraws His protection and permit evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and disaster. So not sure why you are seeking an answer to that.
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176111
08/17/15 07:16 PM
08/17/15 07:16 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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kland, I don't know how MM can know what happens from his belief that God can cause sickness, disease, and death and Satan can cause sickness, disease and death. He keeps asking why God withdraws, but how does he even KNOW that that is the case? He needs to answer that first. But then we have MANY examples of how sickness, disease and death happen, and SOP comments which he wants to ignore, that sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power, not God. And that is a universal truth, as evidences by Christ Himself. Only from this standpoint can one understand what is happening in our environment.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176124
08/18/15 11:57 AM
08/18/15 11:57 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2024
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Good point. And I had thought I was asking him something similar, but he avoided answering.
If it "really doesn't matter" whether Jesus causes death, disease, and disaster or whether satan causes death, disease, and disaster then the exhibition of Jesus' character cannot be distinguished from satan's character.
He seems to think there is "good" character and "bad" character, but how does he not know someone is so in tuned with God that he expresses God's "character" 100%?
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176133
08/18/15 01:56 PM
08/18/15 01:56 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,205
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Since Fukushima, "...Japan has had to make up for that lost generating capacity largely by burning coal and natural gas. Japan, which has little fossil fuel of its own, must import that material, and power costs have risen substantially for businesses and households. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who came to power in late 2012, says Japan needs nuclear power and can operate plants safely. Utility companies have suffered and Japan's trade deficit has risen. That has complicated Abe's efforts to improve the economy."
What have they got to lose? They're toast anyway, just as well make some money on the way down. But what about the rest of us? They had no problem in producing toys with lead paint. Can you imagine how they dispose of contaminated materials? Spread the pain. There should be an absolute ban on Japanese imports to any other country! It's the general population that is "toast". The wealthy corporate types will have "secure" retreats to hide out. Alas, no one can escape judgement, no matter how rich. Incidentally, the rest of the world isn't exactly controlled by billionaire saints. Obama just gave Shell Oil permission to drill in the arctic. Imagine a spill up there! Here's a nice one from Canada's "elite": "A Nova Scotia environmentalist is criticizing federal Environment Minister Leona Aglukkaq's decision to approve an "almost inconceivable" offshore drilling plan from Shell that allows up to 21 days to contain a subsea blowout, despite the U.S. requiring the same company to cap blowouts within 24 hours." CBC News Apparently, it's cheaper for an oil company to bring in capping equipment from Norway than have it on standby. Sable Island National Park is only a couple of kilimeters from the drill sites, but who cares, right? The love of money is all that matters!
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: Mountain Man]
#176135
08/18/15 03:32 PM
08/18/15 03:32 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Again, it doesn't really matter if Jesus Himself is employing the forces of nature to cause the death, disease, and disasters people blame on global warming or if He commands holy angels to do it or if He permits evil angels to do it - the results are the same, namely, Jesus is in control of the outcome of the Great Controversy. He manages the consequences of our choices in ways that ensure things play out according to His will. He does not sit back and permit evil men and evil angels to manipulate things however they see fit. Jesus does not make people make bad decisions. They are free to think and act as they choose. However, Jesus is free to manage the outcome of their thoughts and actions ensuring things play out according to His will. For example, Jesus is free to intervene and prevent man-made disasters. He could have prevented 911. He could have prevented Fukushima. But for reasons that make sense to Jesus He chose to allow things to play out the way they did. More than that, He worked to ensure they did not play out some other way. He leaves nothing to fate, chance, natural law, evil men, or evil angels. The Bible and the SOP are crystal clear: 1) "Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities." 2) "The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2} The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: Mountain Man]
#176136
08/18/15 04:01 PM
08/18/15 04:01 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Why does Jesus withdraw His protection and permit evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and disaster? Why doesn't He intervene and prevent it? In the context of the death, disease, and disaster commonly blamed on global warming it is obvious to me Jesus causes it or allows it for reasons that make sense to Him. Most of the time His "restraining power" intervenes and prevents things from happening that would have otherwise wreaked hellish havoc. Nevertheless, there are times when Jesus causes, commands, or permits horrible things to happen. Why? The answer is plainly laid out in the following LDE excerpts: Crime, Famines, Pestilence
Satan is working in the atmosphere; he is poisoning the atmosphere, and here we are dependent upon God for our lives--our present and eternal lives. And being in the position that we are, we need to be wide awake, wholly devoted, wholly converted, wholly consecrated to God. But we seem to sit as though we were paralyzed. God of heaven, wake us up!--2SM 52 (1890). {LDE 26.4}
God has not restrained the powers of darkness from carrying forward their deadly work of vitiating the air, one of the sources of life and nutrition, with a deadly miasma. Not only is vegetable life affected but man suffers from pestilence. . . . These things are the result of drops from the vials of God's wrath [GOD TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT WHICH HE ALLOWS OR DOES NOT PREVENT. SEE EXODUS 7:3; 8:32; 1 CHRONICLES 10:4, 13, 14.] being sprinkled on the earth, and are but faint representations of what will be in the near future.--3SM 391 (1891). {LDE 27.1}
Famines will increase. Pestilences will sweep away thousands. Dangers are all around us from the powers without and satanic workings within, but the restraining power of God is now being exercised.--19MR 382 (1897). {LDE 27.2} I have been shown that the Spirit of the Lord is being withdrawn from the earth. God's keeping power will soon be refused to all who continue to disregard His commandments. The reports of fraudulent transactions, murders, and crimes of every kind are coming to us daily. Iniquity is becoming so common a thing that it no longer shocks the senses as it once did.--Letter 258, 1907. {LDE 27.3} God's Purpose in Calamities
What mean the awful calamities by sea--vessels hurled into eternity without a moment's warning? What mean the accidents by land--fire consuming the riches that men have hoarded, much of which has been accumulated by oppression of the poor? The Lord will not interfere to protect the property of those who transgress His law, break His covenant, and trample upon His Sabbath, accepting in its place a spurious rest day. {LDE 27.4}
The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--3MR 311 (1902). {LDE 28.1}
God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word.--19MR 279 (1902). {LDE 28.2}
How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man, but in them all God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--PK 277 (c. 1914). {LDE 28.3}
Coming Events Are in the Hands of the Lord
The world is not without a ruler. The program of coming events is in the hands of the Lord. The Majesty of heaven has the destiny of nations as well as the concerns of His church in His own charge.--5T 753 (1889). {LDE 29.1}
These symbolical representations [the fiery serpents in the wilderness] serve a double purpose. From them God's people learn not only that the physical forces of the earth are under the control of the Creator, but also that under His control are the religious movements of the nations. Especially is this true with reference to the enforcement of Sunday observance.--19MR 281 (1902). {LDE 29.2}
In the great closing work we shall meet with perplexities that we know not how to deal with, but let us not forget that the three great Powers of heaven are working, that a divine hand is on the wheel, and that God will bring His purposes to pass.--Ev 65 (1902). {LDE 29.3}
As the wheel-like complications were under the guidance of the hand beneath the wings of the cherubim, so the complicated play of human events is under divine control. Amidst the strife and tumult of nations, He that sitteth above the cherubim still guides the affairs of the earth. [See Ezekiel 1:4, 26; 10:8; Daniel 4:17, 25, 32.]--Ed 178 (1903). {LDE 29.4}
In the annals of human history, the growth of nations, the rise and fall of empires, appear as if dependent on the will and prowess of man; the shaping of events seems, to a great degree, to be determined by his power, ambition, or caprice. But in the Word of God the curtain is drawn aside, and we behold, above, behind, and through all the play and counterplay of human interest and power and passions, the agencies of the All-merciful One, silently, patiently working out the counsels of His own will.--PK 499, 500 (c. 1914). {LDE 29.5} PS - Yes, I realize - "GOD TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT WHICH HE ALLOWS OR DOES NOT PREVENT." - are the words of the editors.
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176143
08/18/15 06:36 PM
08/18/15 06:36 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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He could have prevented Fukushima. But for reasons that make sense to Jesus He chose to allow things to play out the way they did.
How can you be so sure that He allowed it rather than caused it?
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176156
08/19/15 01:43 AM
08/19/15 01:43 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I'm cool with it either way. The quotes I posted above present both sides. In the final analysis one thing is certain - Jesus is in control. He works to ensure the Great Controversy plays out according to His will. As it is written:
"The program of coming events is in the hands of the Lord."
". . . God will bring His purposes to pass."
". . . the complicated play of human events is under divine control. Amidst the strife and tumult of nations, He that sitteth above the cherubim still guides the affairs of the earth."
". . . in the Word of God the curtain is drawn aside, and we behold, above, behind, and through all the play and counterplay of human interest and power and passions, the agencies of the All-merciful One, silently, patiently working out the counsels of His own will."
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176177
08/20/15 06:59 AM
08/20/15 06:59 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,205
Alberta, Canada
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Whether environmental disasters are being caused by God, Satan, humanity, or a combination of them (I believe the latter) is not so important as the fact that they are occuring more and more frequently. Whatever the apparent cause, what matters is the effect. How do we and the unbelieving masses react?
More and more, people everywhere are discussing the changing world. As believers, should we not take these occurrences as God given opportunities to spread the Three Angels Message? I think we can all agree that none of these changes would be happening if God were not, in some way, permitting them. The question is, why is He allowing things to worsen so rapidly?
I believe these disasters are just the beginning and that they are warnings from a merciful God: believers, prepare, purify yourselves, wake up, warn the world; unbelievers, events beyond your control are coming to pass, open your eyes, hearken to the voice of the angels, "the hour of His judgement is come"!
Our Father is opening doors for us on a scale never seen before! And we squander our precious energy bickering over how squeaky the hinges are. WE MUST ALL BE WITH ONE ACCORD IN ONE PLACE!
Open your eyes! The Second Beast is stretching his Dragon lips to speak!
Your hair is wet. Your hands, your arms, your face, water runs down your cheeks like tears for the lost. Can you not feel it? The first drops of Rain have begun to fall...
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
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Re: Global Warming Farce
[Re: kland]
#176178
08/20/15 07:13 AM
08/20/15 07:13 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,205
Alberta, Canada
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A Time to Witness—"The Lord has enlightened us in regard to what is coming upon the earth that we may enlighten others, and we shall not be held guiltless if we are content to sit at ease, with folded hands, and quibble over matters of minor importance...." – {3SM 388.6}
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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