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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#176458
08/30/15 02:17 PM
08/30/15 02:17 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The text does NOT say people will be tormented by Satan. It tells me that they will suffer the wrath "of God." God has wrath. It is reserved for that final punishment of sin and sinners, including Satan himself. Satan will not be wrathful against himself and wish to destroy himself. No, no. Satan will be trying to war against God, of a natural desire toward self-preservation. God, however, will win the battle. What is God's wrath? It has been revealed - Read Romans 1. Christ suffered the wrath of God. Read what EGW writes in ST April 14, 1898 Christ and the Law. If we do not understand what happens with violation of the law, we won't understand the consequences of the Sunday Law. The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9} And the hearts of all who seek the Lord and find Him will be broken as they see the result of sin. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 10} What the "result of sin" God torturing His Son? No. Christ demonstrated the results of sin, death, not execution by God. We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13} Do you hear the Three Angel's Message in there? What is the unquenchable fire? Torture by God? No. The unrepentant sinner will be destroyed "by it". Sin and its results. Read the whole article Green. In Desire of Ages, EGW writes about the "inevitable results of sin". This is a prime issue in the Great Controversy. At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#176459
08/30/15 02:38 PM
08/30/15 02:38 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Is the SDA Church ready to meet the Sunday Law Crisis? Will Jesus allow the crisis to play out if the SDA Church is not ready? Is the SDA Church more ready now than ever before? Or, is it more mess up now than ever before?
Is the World ready for the Sunday Law Crisis? Is it more ready than ever before?
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#176460
08/30/15 02:48 PM
08/30/15 02:48 PM
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SDA
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APL, have you earned the right to preach your view of justice and punishment? You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to torture and kill innocent women and children. You insist all the passages which describe Jesus causing or commanding death, disease, and destruction must be interpreted to mean He withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to do it. So, as soon as Jesus feels death, disease, and destruction are in order - He turns it over to evil men and evil angels to fill the order. Why do you think this makes Jesus look good and makes evil men and evil angels look bad? Why does this make sense to you?
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: Mountain Man]
#176468
08/30/15 03:49 PM
08/30/15 03:49 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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APL, have you earned the right to preach your view of justice and punishment? You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to torture and kill innocent women and children. You insist all the passages which describe Jesus causing or commanding death, disease, and destruction must be interpreted to mean He withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to do it. So, as soon as Jesus feels death, disease, and destruction are in order - He turns it over to evil men and evil angels to fill the order. Why do you think this makes Jesus look good and makes evil men and evil angels look bad? Why does this make sense to you? mm - have you earned the right to reject truth? Men will surely set up their laws to counterwork the laws of God. They will seek to compel the consciences of others, and in their zeal to enforce these laws they will oppress their fellow men. {DA 763.2}
The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: dedication]
#176469
08/30/15 04:53 PM
08/30/15 04:53 PM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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Diverting and building a strawman. The original quote read: "God will be VERY angry when the civil and religious authorities unite to legislate Sunday laws." James Peterson restated the quote pretending it said: "God is VERY angry because some people are worshiping Him on Sundays instead of Saturdays". Those two statements aren't even remotely the same. God is not VERY angry because some people are worshipping Him on Sunday. In fact there will be many people in heaven who honestly kept Sunday, thinking it was the right day.
James Peterson ignores the context and builds further on his straw man version, [saying,] "First, you don't quote from the Bible at all. Secondly, from the Bible, we see that God was VERY angry with the Jews. Legally, they were very strict about the Sabbath. Are you saying then that God hates BOTH those who love worshiping Him on Saturday AND those who do on Sunday?" So one can see he totally failed to address the argument or the issue presented, only reverted back to his own straw man quote which he built into a larger straw man quote. And shot some more at his own enlarged straw man statement which he himself constructed.
The Biblical passages addressing this persecuting system under discussion, that will FORCE and PERSECUTE God's commandment keeping people who worship "Him who made heaven and earth" is found in Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13 and Revelation 14. Read it for yourself. First of all, you misinterpret Rev. 12-14. It is not about worshiping God on a day, either Saturday OR Sunday. Rather it is about worshiping God OR not. Secondly, the ire of Jesus was against the arm-in-arm civil and religious authorities of the Jews legislating rest on the Sabbath, judging according to the letter of the law. In the same vein, God is VERY angry with SDA who harbour ill against their brethren merely because they worship just a day later. Paul said, "every day is holy unto the LORD". ///
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#176471
08/30/15 11:20 PM
08/30/15 11:20 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Moderators:
Please do your job. Forum rules are being blatantly broken.
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: APL]
#176472
08/30/15 11:31 PM
08/30/15 11:31 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: APL, have you earned the right to preach your view of justice and punishment? You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to torture and kill innocent women and children. You insist all the passages which describe Jesus causing or commanding death, disease, and destruction must be interpreted to mean He withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to do it. So, as soon as Jesus feels death, disease, and destruction are in order - He turns it over to evil men and evil angels to fill the order. Why do you think this makes Jesus look good and makes evil men and evil angels look bad? Why does this make sense to you?
A: [Various quotes posted]. I take it you expect me to deduce your answers to my questions based on the quotes you posted. If so, here's what I hear you saying ( in red): 1. You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to torture and kill innocent women and children. Yes, that is precisely what I believe. It is clearly taught in the Bible and in the SOP.2. You insist all the passages which describe Jesus causing or commanding death, disease, and destruction must be interpreted to mean He withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to do it. Yes, that is exactly what I insist because it is precisely what is taught in the Bible and in the SOP.3. So, as soon as Jesus feels death, disease, and destruction are in order - He turns it over to evil men and evil angels to fill the order. Absolutely. What a doubt. Well said.4. Why do you think this makes Jesus look good and makes evil men and evil angels look bad? Why does this make sense to you? Jesus is love, therefore, He cannot cause or command anyone to do something that isn't loving. Consequently, He must rely on evil men and evil angels to do what He will not do. Jesus is fortunate evil men and evil angels are willing to cause death, disease, and destruction when permitting it best suits the Great Controversy.
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: Mountain Man]
#176473
08/31/15 12:03 AM
08/31/15 12:03 AM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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Is the SDA Church ready to meet the Sunday Law Crisis? Will Jesus allow the crisis to play out if the SDA Church is not ready? Is the SDA Church more ready now than ever before? Or, is it more mess up now than ever before? Is the World ready for the Sunday Law Crisis? Is it more ready than ever before? SDA have reached the erroneous conclusion that Rev. 12:17, " the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the [remnant] of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", refers to them and their plight for worshiping God on Saturdays some time soon. BUT it says the dragon went to make war with the [remnant] of the woman's offspring. HE WENT TO MAKE WAR. It does not say, he was going to make war (as in the future), but went to make war. He let the woman go and WENT to make war against the [remnant] of her children. Therefore, while the woman was in the wilderness for 1,260 days, he was wreaking havoc among the [remnant] of her offspring DURING THE SAME PERIOD OF TIME. SDA have therefore become false prophets by twisting the meaning of the spirit of prophecy, i.e. The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is now interesting that when they are corrected, they get hot under the collar and seek to silence those who speak the truth. ///
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: dedication]
#176474
08/31/15 12:32 AM
08/31/15 12:32 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,205
Alberta, Canada
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1st quote: "God will be VERY angry when the civil and religious authorities unite to legislate Sunday laws." Quote reinterpreted to say: "God is VERY angry because some people are worshiping Him on Sundays instead of Saturdays" Those two statements aren't even remotely the same. God is not VERY angry because some people are worshipping Him on Sunday. In fact there will be many people in heaven who honestly kept Sunday, thinking it was the right day. There is a whole different issue involved here. What is it that calls forth God's wrath as described in the third angel's message? It is a well planned, thorough, painstakingly carried out infiltration occurring over many decades now, which will result in "an overwhelming surprise" takeover of most of the world by a system that elevates itself into God's place, pretending to be God, setting itself above God's law and authority, changing God's law, and then using civil armies to impose these changed laws on the people. It presents itself as a "savior" bringing peace, when in reality plunging the world into a regime more sinister than any the planet has ever seen. Through staged chaos, as well as other chaos, they manipulate people into subjection by appealing to their fears and superstition, and by using force and coercion. They will rob those who resist of all the necessities of life, and even life itself-- all the while pretending to be doing God's work! The devil himself inspires the whole thing in outright, in the face, rebellion against God. He wants the worship due God, so he's set up a counterfeit worship system, and he promises those who do his bidding that they will be as gods. Sunday has long been an important day in counterfeit worship, while Saturday is linked to creation, and we worship our Creator on that day. Sunday will be a very prominent link that will link Protestant America to the Catholic system. And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And had she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured. {GC 581.1}
God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. {GC 581.2}
The choice will be -- worship and give your allegiance to the system by obeying it's command concerning worship, or worship and obey the One Who created the heavens and the earth and everything therein. When this deceptive, counterfeit worship system ruthlessly starts stamping out all opposition -- with special hate hurled against God's loyal people, yes -- God will tear away their pious front, vindicate His law and deliver His people. Amen, dedication! Well said!
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
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Re: Pope's Imminent Sunday Law Agenda: Video-Doug Batchelor
[Re: dedication]
#176475
08/31/15 12:59 AM
08/31/15 12:59 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,205
Alberta, Canada
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Too bad this thread has turned into another "does God do it or is it the revelation of what sin does.
Personally, I believe MOST of the terrible end time happenings will be showing the terrible results that happen when God's laws are rejected and evil is totally unrestrained.
God's Holy Spirit is fully withdrawn from the earth and evil is allowed to fully manifest itself, and the result is UTTER RUIN, all the "peace and love" promised by the system is seen to result in only terror and hate and ruthless persecution.
Yet, God is still with HIS loyal people, and HE will deliver them with His own awesome intervention. The earth is not allowed to destroy itself with God's people on it. God DELIVERS HIS PEOPLE with His own manifestation of power and vindication of His law, which brings all the evil (which would only have prolonged the utter misery) to a sudden and very decisive end I agree, it is a combination of God's wrath, Satan's unleashed wickedness, and the fruit of unrestrained sin. I also agree that this thread is being redirected to a topic that is already being discussed on another thread: "Global Warming Farce".
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
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