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Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: Green Cochoa] #177886
11/09/15 04:41 PM
11/09/15 04:41 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Daryl,

Pants/trousers were to be held up with suspenders--thus suspending their weight from the shoulders. I would have to say that your question seems irrelevant.
I think it is a highly relevant question. While having come across the skirt and shoulders issue before, I have not come across suspenders. Do you have a quote for such?

Personally, I've never had a problem wearing pants and circulation issues or any other issues.

So it becomes, that either women are made differently regarding the waist or men should have their clothes suspended from their shoulders, too. Could women use suspenders for a skirt? Should men wear dresses and enjoy the health benefits?

Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: kland] #177889
11/09/15 05:20 PM
11/09/15 05:20 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Whoa...lots of questions there.

1) Mrs. White may not mention "suspenders," but she says very clearly that clothing should be "suspended" from the shoulders. Here's a quote that applies to all children, so we would presume this applies to boys as well.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Tight bands or waists hinder the action of the heart and lungs and should be avoided. No part of the body should at any time be made uncomfortable by clothing that compresses any organ or restricts its freedom of movement. The clothing of all children should be loose enough to admit of the freest and fullest respiration, and so arranged that the shoulders will support its weight. {CG 426.1}


It is needful to understand that in Ellen White's day, men wore suspenders. Women had other styles of dress subject to the fashion of the day. A quote in which she addresses women, but then seems to apply the principle broadly to "the person" follows.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Another error in the dress of women of the present day is that of wearing their skirts so that the weight is sustained by the hips alone. This heavy weight, pressing upon the bowels, drags them downward, and causes weakness of the stomach and a feeling of lassitude, which leads the sufferer to incline forward. This tends further to cramp the lungs, and prevent their proper action. The blood becomes impure, the pores of the skin fail in their office, sallowness and disease result, and beauty and health are gone. Ladies may resort to cosmetics to restore the tint of the complexion, but they cannot thus bring back the glow of health. That which renders the skin dark and dingy, also clouds the spirits, and destroys cheerfulness and peace of mind. Every woman who values health should avoid hanging any weight upon the hips. The shoulders should sustain the weight of every article of clothing worn upon the person. This will go far to prevent the weaknesses which prevail among women to such an alarming extent. {CTBH 88.3}


I, personally, would not feel justified in saying that principle applied only to women. Certainly, Mrs. White does not say so. She does not specify men as being in a different class and therefore not needing to follow this same principle. But it seems that the men of her day did not generally fall into the same error as the women did.

2) Yes, women could use suspenders for a skirt. Many do. In my part of the world, some school uniforms have such. Google can show you pictures, if you dare (don't scroll down too far, as I found out, even with the "safe search" turned on).

3) Trousers with suspenders, or a "coveralls" style of clothing, or "bib overalls," or even a "jumpsuit" are all forms of clothing that could remain loose in the abdominal area for men. There's no reason to suggest that men put on women's clothing. God declares such to be abominable.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: Green Cochoa] #177906
11/10/15 02:19 AM
11/10/15 02:19 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Whoa...lots of questions there.

1) Mrs. White may not mention "suspenders," but she says very clearly that clothing should be "suspended" from the shoulders. Here's a quote that applies to all children, so we would presume this applies to boys as well.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Tight bands or waists hinder the action of the heart and lungs and should be avoided. No part of the body should at any time be made uncomfortable by clothing that compresses any organ or restricts its freedom of movement. The clothing of all children should be loose enough to admit of the freest and fullest respiration, and so arranged that the shoulders will support its weight. {CG 426.1}


It is needful to understand that in Ellen White's day, men wore suspenders. Women had other styles of dress subject to the fashion of the day. A quote in which she addresses women, but then seems to apply the principle broadly to "the person" follows.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Another error in the dress of women of the present day is that of wearing their skirts so that the weight is sustained by the hips alone. This heavy weight, pressing upon the bowels, drags them downward, and causes weakness of the stomach and a feeling of lassitude, which leads the sufferer to incline forward. This tends further to cramp the lungs, and prevent their proper action. The blood becomes impure, the pores of the skin fail in their office, sallowness and disease result, and beauty and health are gone. Ladies may resort to cosmetics to restore the tint of the complexion, but they cannot thus bring back the glow of health. That which renders the skin dark and dingy, also clouds the spirits, and destroys cheerfulness and peace of mind. Every woman who values health should avoid hanging any weight upon the hips. The shoulders should sustain the weight of every article of clothing worn upon the person. This will go far to prevent the weaknesses which prevail among women to such an alarming extent. {CTBH 88.3}


I, personally, would not feel justified in saying that principle applied only to women. Certainly, Mrs. White does not say so. She does not specify men as being in a different class and therefore not needing to follow this same principle. But it seems that the men of her day did not generally fall into the same error as the women did.

2) Yes, women could use suspenders for a skirt. Many do. In my part of the world, some school uniforms have such. Google can show you pictures, if you dare (don't scroll down too far, as I found out, even with the "safe search" turned on).

3) Trousers with suspenders, or a "coveralls" style of clothing, or "bib overalls," or even a "jumpsuit" are all forms of clothing that could remain loose in the abdominal area for men. There's no reason to suggest that men put on women's clothing. God declares such to be abominable.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Excellent post, Green.

Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: Green Cochoa] #177935
11/10/15 08:28 PM
11/10/15 08:28 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Posts: 6,512
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Whoa...lots of questions there.

1) Mrs. White may not mention "suspenders," but she says very clearly that clothing should be "suspended" from the shoulders. Here's a quote that applies to all children, so we would presume this applies to boys as well.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Tight bands or waists hinder the action of the heart and lungs and should be avoided. No part of the body should at any time be made uncomfortable by clothing that compresses any organ or restricts its freedom of movement. The clothing of all children should be loose enough to admit of the freest and fullest respiration, and so arranged that the shoulders will support its weight. {CG 426.1}

I suspect closer reading would reveal an address to the girls. Girls with tight waste binders.

Nothing compressing my organs nor restricts my freedom of movement. And the last suggests all should support their clothing from the shoulders, not from suspenders.

Quote:
It is needful to understand that in Ellen White's day, men wore suspenders.
About the best argument. Is it true?

Quote:
Women had other styles of dress subject to the fashion of the day. A quote in which she addresses women, but then seems to apply the principle broadly to "the person" follows.
...
I, personally, would not feel justified in saying that principle applied only to women. Certainly, Mrs. White does not say so.
Or say not. Speculation.

Quote:
She does not specify men as being in a different class and therefore not needing to follow this same principle.
See your 3.

Quote:
3) Trousers with suspenders, or a "coveralls" style of clothing, or "bib overalls," or even a "jumpsuit" are all forms of clothing that could remain loose in the abdominal area for men. There's no reason to suggest that men put on women's clothing. God declares such to be abominable.
What about middle Eastern wear? Or even Eastern? Are they wrong? Robes? And priest's robes? Do you have a definition of men and women's clothing?

Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: kland] #177940
11/11/15 01:16 AM
11/11/15 01:16 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
suspect closer reading would reveal an address to the girls. Girls with tight waste binders.

You don't appear to be as egalitarian as some on this forum when it comes to gender issues. I can respect your position, and I see how you might arrive at it. I just don't happen to see it the same way.

Originally Posted By: kland
What about middle Eastern wear? Or even Eastern? Are they wrong? Robes? And priest's robes? Do you have a definition of men and women's clothing?


On this point, with whom are you arguing? I'm not here to argue. Your issue appears to be with the Bible. Take it there. This is what the Bible says...

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. (Deuteronomy 22:5)


If you believe God has given imprecise directions, argue with Him about it. I, on the other hand, choose to believe God is clear. It is obvious enough to most of us which clothes are masculine and which are feminine. I do find, however, that children tend to be more honest about it than adults.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: Green Cochoa] #177945
11/11/15 11:11 AM
11/11/15 11:11 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Does women wearing pants constitute women wearing men's clothing, which would also be an abomination?

I ask as we can hardly tell the difference between men and women when it comes to the clothing that the women are wearing these days.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: kland] #177946
11/11/15 11:19 AM
11/11/15 11:19 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
kland wrote;

"What about middle Eastern wear? Or even Eastern? Are they wrong? Robes? And priest's robes? Do you have a definition of men and women's clothing?" (bold emphasis mine)

The Bible does distinguish between men and women clothing, so there should be a distinction. Daryl's point about the lack of distinction is a problem.

Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: Green Cochoa] #177971
11/11/15 10:49 PM
11/11/15 10:49 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Green, are you saying that you think women should wear dresses all the time whether it be in church or at the office or gardening or hiking through the woods?

Quote:
If you believe God has given imprecise directions, argue with Him about it. I, on the other hand, choose to believe God is clear. It is obvious enough to most of us which clothes are masculine and which are feminine.
I think this is an example of how you interpret scripture. It's so clear you don't need to explain it to others. Translated: It's however you feel like it should be interpreted and others better agree with you.

So, I don't suppose it would do to question you about your underwear not being suspended from your shoulders as you'll say that's different because it's clear.

To me it's quite clear women's pants are different than men's pants.

Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: kland] #177978
11/11/15 11:57 PM
11/11/15 11:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
kland,

Do you see it as my business to be the arbiter of what a woman should and should not wear? Why would you be asking me what they should wear? This, to me, is the problem. My views should not even matter to you. You should not be influenced by them. You should take your views directly from what God has said. And what has He said on the matter? That should be your first quest. Find out.

Rather than suggest what I would opine, which would actually be easier to do, let me provide some solid directions from scripture.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together. Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest [thyself]. (Deuteronomy 22:11-12)


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We cannot, if we would, conceal the fact that women have feet and limbs that were made for use. But in regard to the exposure, this is on the other side of the question. We have traveled extensively the past twenty-five years, and have been eye-witnesses to many indecent exposures of the limbs. But the most common exposure is seen upon the streets in light snow, or wet and mud. Both hands are required to elevate the dress, that it may clear the wet and filth. It is a common thing to see the dress raised one-half of a yard, exposing an almost unclad ankle to the sight of gentlemen, but no one seems to blush at this immodest exposure. No one's sensitive modesty seems shocked for the reason that this is customary. It is fashion, and for this reason it is endured. No outcry of immodesty is heard, although it is so in the fullest sense. {HR, May 1, 1872 par. 18}


(Apparently "ankle" in the above includes the calf area, or else Mrs. White is referring to ladies who have worn short stockings. "Half a yard" is, of course, 18 inches, which, on the average woman, comes up to about the knee. Regardless of the exact dimensions, one principle emerges from this: that fashion and/or culture do not properly define modesty, and cannot be relied upon to determine what is or is not modest.)

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Our attention was next called to a little girl about ten years of age. It was one of the bitterest days of winter, and yet this little girl's limbs were naked for full half a yard, with the exception of flannel stockings. The upper portions of the body were abundantly clothed. She had a warm dress, a nice waterproof cloak and cape lined with flannel, a fur tippet over the cloak, and a muff for her hands. Her dress gave evidence of a tender, thoughtful mother's care, except the neglected limbs, that portion of the body of all the rest which needed the extra coverings because they were so far from the heart. This delicate, bright-eyed child was suffering with severe cold and cough. It was difficult for her to breathe because of catarrhal affection. {HR, January 1, 1874 par. 3}


(Clothing the limbs is necessary for health, not merely modesty.)

Enough said for now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Should women wear only dresses? [Re: Green Cochoa] #178001
11/12/15 09:40 PM
11/12/15 09:40 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

Do you see it as my business to be the arbiter of what a woman should and should not wear? Why would you be asking me what they should wear?
Oh I don't know. Could it be that YOU were saying men needed to wear suspenders?

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