I agree with you above. It's a good way to put it and I often forget that the "early rain" is the equivalence of entering the Pentecost level of faith. Tx for bringing this up and is a good way to explain it.



I had viewed the “deep sleep” that Abraham experienced in Gen 15:12 very differently than those that had falling down as dead in the presence of the Lord by Daniel 8:18 and 10:8,9 and with John in Rev 1:17. I do agree with your observation of Daniel, Ezekiel, and I would add John that seeing the glory of God like that when they are still in a “corrupt and mortal” body, gives us the sense of being “undone and unworthy”. However, I had view Abraham “deep sleep” as being totally different were I was thinking he was unaware whereas, I was reading Daniel and John “fell at his feet as dead” being conscious and awake. But after re-reading the texts in Gen 15:12, Abraham was aware as Daniel and John for scripture says “an horror of great darkness fell upon him” and in v. 13 the Lord spoke to Abraham. So I was wrong. Also the same Hebrew tadermah is used to described both Abraham and Daniel experience. Tadermah root word is radam that means “to stun, i.e. stupefy (with sleep or death).” Interestingly the same word is used in 1 Sam 26:12 when David snuck in the cave were King Saul and his soldiers “were all asleep; because a deep sleep (tadermah) from the Lord was fallen upon them". Then in Isaiah 29:10 concerning the corrupt leaders of the Church saying “For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep (tadermah)". So I was taking Abraham experience in the context of Isaiah 29:10 and 1 Sam 26:12 and not linking it to Daniel, Ezekiel or John experience.

I am very reluctant to say or view that there is two different application of the Tadermah word. I don’t view the Hebrew language as any other language that can carry multiple meanings in one word. I have the tendency to view Hebrew words carrying multiple meaning at once. For example, the word shama that means both at the same time “to hear” and “to obey”. One cannot obey without hearing, and vice versa. So shama means both these words; thus in our English translations of this words, hearing or obeying could be used interchangeably.

All this to say, well I need to go back to the drawing board with the Lord and chew on this more so He can reconciled all these texts. I haven’t attached the need of “repentance” or “undone condition” as you expressed to Abraham “deep sleep” experience. I was making a parallele with Abraham deep sleep as being blind and I think I am wrong in doing so. So I appreciate this input and the correction it brought to my thinking.

I do agree with what you say above that at each level of faith there’s a repentance stage (=dying of the flesh) that is symbolized by the breaking of the veil that separates each compartment of the temple. The way I express it that there’s 3 veils that needs to be ripped(=repentance) that allows us to enter to the next compartment(=level of faith) and get us a little closer in seeing the glory of God. So I do see the repentance connection that you are putting to Daniel, Ezekiel “deep sleep” with Abraham’s experience.

Elle, a friend sent me an email today saying we need to repent even if we're not conscious of any wrong doing. She's likely right. When Christ came preaching repentance there were many who felt no need. When Christ told his fellow citizens of Nazareth he came to set them free, they denied they were enslaved by sin. But their murderous reaction to his teaching provided the proof of their abject slavery to evil. If we're in that boat we have a few options. We can ignore Christ's testimony, we can attack the messenger or we can say yes, it's true. Even though we don't immediately see our corrupt nature we will eventually like Isaiah, Daniel and John did if we're at least willing to admit our need for deliverance.

I really appreciate your frank admission of being guilty of throwing stones. I still struggle with that, with bridling my tongue. I say, Lord help me to see the myriad of other ways I'm deficient in reflecting Christ.

That's a good point and it is well said and I agree with the above. Let's bring this a step further for the purpose to qualify it. Repent of what? or how do we repent? I don't like putting anyone on a spot. But for the sake of reflection, I don't believe that the answer is the list of dos and donts. Don't get me wrong, that list does help us to learn.

It's not much of an admission really, despite I am sorry and was guilty of it and still am to some extend. I brought it up for the goal to bring a tangible example of how the Lord works all things together -- in an attempt to show the Lord's purpose in having most believers as stoners as it has been the case since Adam. Only when we see the big picture and see the Lord's Sovereignty behind all things can we come to forgive ourself and our dear brothers and sisters like Joseph did.

My view is we all started at the same place(slaves of sin) and are on the same journey going thru the same learning-growing process. We were (and most still are) all vessels of destruction and in His appointed times set tru the Feasts' growing path He reshapes that lump, a little at a time, into a vessel of honor.

Of course, as you know, because of my view that the Lord is going to finish the work He started in all of us -- I see everyone(without any exception) ending up in the full glory and image of Jesus. This gives me a total different pair of eyeglasses than my brothers has who sincerely believes that 90%+ of the population will be annihilated. I'm not saying this to jab you or anyone reading this. Just pointing out the benefit in it and the power of it if what I believe is truly the gospel message that was preached.

That's what my point I was trying to make regarding the stoners two or three posts ago by quoting Ex 4:11. I see a huge implication of responsibility on the Lord when He said "Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?". Let me add to this list -- the stoners. I believe He hold Himself responsible by making someone blind : "AV Ex 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake." If we believe He keeps His own laws and these are prophetic... then in this law He's saying that the blind servant that He is responsible for will be set free. That text doesn't say when. I believe at the latest they will be set free at the time of the Great Jubilee -- 43,000 years from now, if the prophetic applicatin equivalence of 1 year = 1000 years. I think that's plenty of time for the Lord to teach everyone righteousness after the Great White throne judgment. (Is 26:9..for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.)

It would be nice if the Lord could save every one. There's nothing He'd like more than that. I think you are more optimistic that scripture. . I'm guessing you think we'll have another chance after we die?

It is my understanding that our fate is sealed after death.

In other words, there isn't any second chance after death.

The thief on the cross who called out to Jesus in repentance will be with him in Paradise (Heaven), whereas the other thief who didn't will not be with Him in Paradise (Heaven).