Your question is lacking as it is built on some assumption that I pointed at other posts above. So I'll address the question in terms of being outside or inside the Kingdom.

In the Kingdom of God, there is a KING, LAWS, Land, and citizens.

Daniel 2:35 say " the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." The text says that little stone, first became a mountain implying that it grew to that size, and then that mountain grew to filled the whole earth. That stone and the mountain represents the Kingdom of God at Jesus 2nd coming when He and His Melchisedek Priest will rule the earth during the Millennium(Rev 5:10; 20:6 ). It will start small and grow until the Kingdom of God will cover the whole earth. Which implies that not everyone will be inside the Kingdom of God at Jesus 2nd coming and it might take the whole Millennium for all the nations of the earth to accept Jesus and enter the Kingdom.

AV Mic 4:1 . "But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

So my understanding is there were two application of the narrow door Mat 7 and Luk 13 : an emmediate and at the 2nd coming.

We have the history of what has happened to the emmediate application of this judgment that was towards the nation(House) of Judah. We know that they were CAST OUT of the Kingdom of God 40 years later after Jesus ministry. They were CAST OUT like Jesus had done previously with the House of Israel in 745 BC. Once Cast out, these Israelites and those Jews were disqualified to be CITISENZE and Leaders of the Abramic Blessings to the nations not because of some spiritual defects but because Israel refused the Lord Jehovah(Jesus) as their husband and Judah refused to accept Jesus as their King and as their Passover lamb -- both of these nations(Israel & Judah) were cast out of the HOUSE of God and lost their citizenship of His Kingdom based on that ground. In another word they found themselves on the outside of the Kingdom like all other nations --the Ethnos(=Gentiles). But they(the Jews & Israelites) still can re-enter the Kingdom today, right? Being CAST OUT doesn't equate you are eternally lost. That's a false assumption. It was not so for the nation of Israel, nor it was so for the nation of Judah. Then we have ample prophecies that says that [NATURAL] Israel will be restored and will be saved.

However, they all have to re-enter the Kingdom at the same level as like any other gentiles (ethnos) by one of the 12 gates, and accept Jesus as their King & Passover lamb, and go thru the next spiritual growth & training into Pentecost and Tabernacle.

But there were some Jews (and Israelites) that did not reject Jesus. Some of those were trained and became overcomers like Daniel, Ezekiel, and etc..., and others where not fully trained like Esau. Whatever if trained or not, what's important to note is that these were not CAST OUT of the Kingdom if they didn't reject Husband Jehovah and King Jesus.

I believe the same type of scenario will happen again at Jesus 2nd coming. Those that will find themselves totally outside the kingdom (the unbelievers and the blood-thirsty believers) will have to re-start their spiritual journey by breaking thru the first veil(=flesh = repentance = death) into the outer court= Passover level of faith, and move along the other level of faith and pass thru the other 2 veils(=more death) that separates each chambers and represents different levels of spiritual growth and faith.

However after the millennium at the 2nd resurrection perhaps the unfaithful believers might be split in two groups(the leaders vs. the pew warmers) or maybe they will all fall in one group. I'm don't know. I do know Jesus gives many parable about His judgment towards the unfaithful believers. There's the parable of them receiving some lashing, of their foundation of their works will be tested with fire, and etc... So the "unfaithful servants" receives a different judgment than the unbelievers and it is possible that after their(the unfaithful believers) judgment time is expired -- they might receive the IMMORTAL robe sometime after the 2nd resurrection. I don't know, nor do I think the Lord has reveal this as this revelation pertains to that AGE(olam & aion).

However, to my understanding there will be a harsher judgment for the abusive servants that will receive their rewards with the unbeliever(basically will be cast out) and will be thrown in the lake of fire. The lake of fire judgment goes until the end of Jubilee. The first Sabbath Millennium is the first weekly-Millennium Sabbath. Thus the end of the Great Jubilee is 7 x 7 Millenium = 49,000 years. It will be at the end of the Great Jubilee that the unbelievers and the abusive believers will receive their IMMORTAL Robe(life).

To wrap all of this with an observation. There is 3 Harvests in the law of Moses.

1st - Barley Harvest = Overcomers the Priest @ Jesus 2nd coming
2nd - Wheat Harvest = the Believers or congregation @ after the Millenium
3rd - Grape Harvest = the Unbelievers & abusive believers @ the Great Jubilee

All of these fruits make it at the Lord's table.

There is also the following Bible text:

This in conjunction with the other verses shows that our choice for salvation is only granted in this life, after which comes the judgment. Whatever choice we have made for or against the gift of salvation is sealed after we die.

This also shows that there is no second chance salvation after death.

Are you saying these people will be burning for 49,000 years as payment for their sins, then they will receive eternal life?

It is true that the soul(=mind) is the "essence" of the individual especially the "essence of the soulish individual" as the soul has usurp the authority of our spirit.

Do notice you characterize the soul as : "think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character." All of these are characteristics of the MIND. My understanding is the soul is basically the MIND. But it is not the whole person(body & spirit).

The Bible tells us in 1Thes 5:23 that we are Body, SOUL(=mind), and Spirit. It is the soul(reasoning and deduction and choice of the mind) that sins at the beginning with Adam & Eves. And sins still continues to take seeds first at the level of the mind(soul) before it manifest into an action from the body.


I disagree. When a soul(mind) repents and submits(=spiritual death = the 2nd death) to the Spirit, the persons still is around until his body decays into the natural death(=physical death = the 1st death).

I agree on the physical level --the physical brain[=body] needs to be functioning for the soul[mind] to exist. However there's two deaths like there's two births: the first being a physical death(or birth) and the second, a spiritual death(or birth).


I think we are saying the same thing -- the soul is the mind.




I never said the soul can live outside the body. Re-read my post and above.


The word "carnal" (sarkikos G4559) is related to the passion of the body like sex and appetite. There's only one text(Rom 8:7) in the KJV that sarkikos is translated as "carnal mind" but do note the word mind is not in the Greek translation. The carnal nature is relating to the flesh or lower level of our nature. Whereas the soul is relating to a higher level of our nature =the mind and not the body. Of course hunger or sex thoughts comes to our mind; but these are coming from signals from the body (hormonal or lack of glucose in our blood stream).

Look at the Greek word Psuche(G5590)transated as soul 58x, life 40x, mind 3x, heart 1x and Psuchekos(G5591 means soulish) translated as natural [man] or natural [body] 4x and sensual 2x.


There's no "carnal soul" in the Bible. Your mixing things together that is not defined as such.

One thing you haven't talked about is the spirit of man. The Bible tells us Man is a)Body, b)soul, and c)spirit. You have talk about the body(=that is carnal) and the soul(=mind), but no mention of man's spirit. But only mention of the Holy Spirit.

What I understand is the Holy Spirit via the SEED units with Man's spirit when they are begotten from above(1 Jo 3:9; Rom 8:16). When the Holy Spirit teaches us, He talks to our spirit. Our spirit is the highest level in us and is giving authority over the soul(mind). And the soul(mind) have authority over the body. So the order of the command of God goes first to our spirit, and our soul needs to submit to it and give it to the body that manifest it in a form of action.

The problem is the soul(mind) doesn't understand spiritual things.

AV 1C 2:14 "But the natural man[G5991 Psuchekos] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."

As far I have come to understand this, and let me be clear that I still do not have a firm grip on this, is the soul[mind] will always never understand spiritual things. The mind function is to analyse, put in order, classified, and etc.... but it is only our spirit that can understand spiritual things. So this death and submission of the soul to the spirit of man, is an only going thing. The order of authority of the spirit, soul, and body is the basic construction of man, and will stay as such forever and ever.


The transformation of character is not done by us but done by the Lord as He "puts my laws in their inward parts, and write it in their heart." (Jer 31:33) I still don't know what exactly this text means technically. Is the "inward parts" represents the body and "heart" represents the soul??? I don't know.


??? You made some assumption that I didn't say nor do I believe in.

The second death is a spiritual death that involves the mind[=soul] by submitting to the Lord commands and His leading via our spirit.

No, I said the fire is symbolic of the law. No, I never said there's a 42,000 years of literal burning (49,000 years total minus the 7,000 years that elapse at the time of the Great White throne Judgment). The total time of the payment for their sins depends on how much the total sums of their crimes amount to. Many will pay before the Great Jubilee will come. But for those that their debt are greater than what their 42,000 years can pay, the Jubilee law sets a limit of time for sin. At the Great Jubilee, all debts are cancelled(forgiven) and all are restored back to their inheritance = glorified body. Those that will pay before the great Jubilee comes, will have to wait for the time of the Great Jubilee to be changed into their IMMORTAL Robe.

Just like all the overcomers throughout history had to wait for the time of the 1st ressurection to be changed as a corporate body into their IMMORTAL Robe. And I'm assuming it will be the same for the rest of the believers resurrected after the Millenium. I don't know when, but sometime after their "lashing" period of time is completed and their time for them to go thru their Pentecost and Tabernacle growth, then they will all be changed together. My understanding from the first harvest and from the law; is these 3 harvests time are corporate events.

Sorry my explanation wasn't clear to you, but I meant the lake of fire is symbolic. I'm not going to repeat everything I said in that post but basically that the lake of fire symbolically represents the following:

a)the execution of the sentence of the law that was given at the great white thron. The Great white throne is the judgment of all great & small, according to their deeds. The lake of fire is what happens after the sentence is given -- thus it is the execution of the sentence.

b)the work of the Holy Spirit to teach them His Laws in the sanctification-purifying process

c)a repentance(=second death) & cleansing as symbolized in a baptism in a lake and washing rituals in the law.


Jesus is said to be like a refiner of precious metals, or fullers soap. The fire and the soap has the same goal to wash, or burn the impurities away. So why do you assume the fire is literal? Also why do you assume the judgment of God is all the same verdict -- physical death - annihilation - literal burning in fire by which this type of judgment is not found in the law.

The goal of any judgment of God was always correctional and to teach his people righteousness (His laws). (Is 26:9,10) But since man lifespan is so short, and a reasonable time of mercy (6000 years) was needed to proceed the Great White throne Judgment; thus, many has died a physical death. Some died because their nation was corrected(judged by the Lord) despite some individual that died were not guilty of their nation's sin. Then we have some individual that were judged in the Old Covenant time by stoning by which typified a defering of their judgment to the Great White throne which is like passing a case to the supreme court.

If you study the judgments of God, not all judgments sentences were stoning. Only adultery, pre-meditated murder and presumption sins were. All other judgments addressed the crime in the measure of the offence and in the level of knowing the law. All judgment were correctional in nature. For example, if you stole someone lamb and were found; the judgment was you needed to pay two fold(return the lamb you stole plus another one). If you couldn't return it because you had destroyed it or sold it; then you had to pay 4 times. However, it you returned it before anyone noticed it was stolen, and confess your sin, then the judgment was only 1/5 of the cost of a lamb plus returning the stolen one. This is one example of the judgment of the law that depends on the nature of the crime and other factors.

Giving a person a chance and time to repent when they are told their sin, was always part of the law also. David was both an adulterer and a pre-meditated murderer. David very well knew the law at the intellectual level before he committed these sins. Despite, David was given a chance to repent and was not stoned to death. David is an example of an overcomer that was being trained in his lifetime by the Lord and his sins were corrected on the spot by the Lord.

Most people are not trained in their lifetime because they serve another purpose and their judgment is defered at the Great White throne. For many(unbelievers and believers alike) their sins seems to not be corrected; whereas under the old covenant in the time under Moses sins were sharply addressed in the camp. Then, we have various examples how the Lord has applied His judgment on David, on the nation of Israel and of Judah and with the Gentiles(nations). We also can see there were many warnings before a pronouncement of judgment. Then we see a lapse of time between the pronouncement of judgment and the execution of the judgment. So there are many factors involved in the proceeding of justice with mercy to allow growth and establish order in the kingdom.

David did not die by a literal stoning, but he did pay for his sins(the Lords judgments on David) that lasted for a good part of his lifetime. This is how the Lord taught David not to murder and not to commit adultery. It was the Lord's judgment-correction that made it possible for these laws to get written in David's heart. Without judgment & correction that fitted his crime, David would of never learned nor would David have become an overcomer at the end.

What the Lord did for David or any other overcomer; He can do and will do to all other men via His judgment after the Great White Throne. It wouldn't be fair for Him to not take the time to train the other people like He did with the FIRSTFRUITS-Overcomers.

There's much more to be said on what the Law and history by which reveal the wisdom and depth of the judgments of the Lord.

This equating all sins to the same literal death penalty by a LITERAL FIRE at the Great White throne Judgment is totally absurd and not in the law = thus has no light in it. Not once in the law did the Lord sentence anyone to death by a literal Fire. Not once. Why do you think He will do so and change His ways at the Great White throne?

I don't. You're assuming that I agree to some or all of your interpretation of what Jesus meant by "destruction."

When Jesus said people are on the road that leads to life, I interpret that to mean that they will live in the end. When Jesus said people are on the road that leads to destruction, I interpret that to mean that they will be destroyed in the end.

You seem to be saying that their minds will be destroyed, leaving their body and spirit intact, and they will be taught God's law until they decide to obey. But even if they never obey, the Jubilee puts a cap on how long they will have to go through this reeducation process. In the end, EVERYBODY will live.

It seems that in your view, the debt of sin is repaid, not by death, but by a very very very long sermon. Having sat through some long sermons specifically designed to pummel me into submitting to a belief I oppose and reject, I imagine that is a fate that could be far worse than death.

I see that you have quite a framework to support your belief, but I am far from accepting the conclusion that God will force the impenitent to live in His presence. Heaven would be torture to them.

Well, the plan of salvation was devised to save every single single being that would ever live. But, as 2 Peter 3:9 states, we must repent!

So then, the choice is ours to make. I hope we all make the right choices in our lives.

This life is our only chance.

But, there are many fearful ideas I believe, of some kind of second chances just in case we get it wrong in this life! This life is the only chance we get, and it is more than enough.

Why do I say it is enough? Because we have a Just and Holy God who hopes to save us all.

I never thought I would ever see so much confusion (Babylon) being sown
in a Seventh Day Adventist discussion of the nature of the soul.

Let us return to the beginning. What is God's definition of a soul?


"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7


When Adam was a completely formed body, was he a soul? No!
Was the breath of life "breathed into his (Adam's) nostrils the soul? No!
It was only when the breath of life and the physical body were united that Adam
"BECAME a living soul"!

A smartphone with no power source is a pretty chunk of glass, metal, and plastic.
A battery sitting on a table has no purpose.
Place the battery inside the smartphone and you have a scientific marvel that speaks, sees, and remembers!


This dark doctrine of no true eternal death belittles the great sacrifice of our Lord
and echoes the ominous words of the Serpent: "Ye shall not surely die"...

It is remarkable how often the Devil repeats that first lie spoken to our parents.

I realize there are some Pseudo-Adventists among us who would lead us to cast aside the words of God's Last Day Prophet, but for those with ears to hear, Sister White has warned us to beware these coming deceptions:

"The prophet says, “I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils” (Revelation 18:1, 2). This is the same message that was given by the second angel. Babylon is fallen, “because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication” (Revelation 14:8). What is that wine?—Her false doctrines. She has given to the world a false sabbath instead of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and has repeated the falsehood that Satan first told Eve in Eden—the natural immortality of the soul. Many kindred errors she has spread far and wide, “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9). – {2SM 118.1}"

Does anyone else find this theory of unsaved "souls" being purged by fire after death, then returned to the company of the redeemed, to be vaguely familiar?
It bares more than a passing resemblance to the Catholic teaching of Purgatory!


"Purgatory : a state after death according to Roman Catholic belief in which the souls of people who die are made pure through suffering before going to heaven."
Merriam-Webster