It looks like you guys have had quite a bit of fun since I took my break. I'll catch up over the next few days.

I just want to clarify that I am not annoyed in the least. You and I can disagree as vigorously as we can muster, and it won't annoy me as long as there is a genuine exchange of ideas. What will annoy me are attempts to suppress honest dissent, when ideas flow only in one direction. That is a spirit I have no interest in engaging.

If you need a long post or many posts or many long posts to explain your ideas, I have no problem with that. If I get tired or run out of time, I know how to shut down my computer. LOL

The reference to a long sermon was not about you. I was remembering instances of literally sitting through sermons at church that were designed to oppose my beliefs. Given that there is usually no exchange of ideas during sermons, you can imagine how much it annoys me when that happens.

That is how I envision your description of the 40,000+ year session with the broad road travellers. They will get a sermon until they change their mind (or soul, as some call it).

BTW, is Satan going to be in that congregation?

I think I understand what you meant. What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't match what I think Jesus meant.

For example, Jesus said few will find the road to life. What you're saying is that few will find the road to life at the 1st resurrection, but everybody will eventually find it at the 2nd resurrection. You are adding to what Jesus said in a way that changes what He meant.

Yes, I believe those who miss the 1st resurrection will be annihilated. In fact, you cited a verse that I believe teaches that:
What happens to "those who commited the evil deeds"? The full verse makes a distinction between the different types of resurrections.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29)

I believe Jesus was making a contrast between the 1st resurrection that leads to life and the 2nd resurrection that leads to condemnation. But in your view, that "condemnation" also eventually leads to life, 40,000+ years later. So you would have Jesus saying, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of life also, but later."


God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life. (Acts 11:18)

Repentance leads to life. So in your view, the wages of sin is not death, but postponed life.

This is why it seems you are saying that the impenitent will also live eternally.

In your view, people will be paying for their sins in the Lake of Fire, which you also equate to a re-education process that eventually leads to repentance. This process can take thousands of years.

But you say there may be those who can't fully pay off their sins even after 42,000 years (which translates to usury with a pretty high interest rate, since the longest life of sin we know was only 969 years long). These sinners get in because of the Jubilee limit, not because they have come to repentance. Am I understanding you correctly?

Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant with the sermonizing and thinking you were referring to me. Forgive me for making those comments afterwards about you "being annoyed with me". It shows that I was hurt by it; but yet it is not a reason to say those comments.

You know I was a little surprise after reading your post that you would say such things as I never read that sort of attitude from you. I should of stick to my initial gut feeling and re-read your post. But no I just reasoned with it that maybe I hit you on a hard day or touching too deeply on sensitive topics. Anyway, so sorry for this.




Since my post was already too long, I skipped explaining about the Jubilee law. So I understand why this "way outside the box" interpretation is very unfamiliar.


Nope! was that short enough of an answer

According to your understanding, Elle, the "lake of fire" is not a physically burning, destroying to ashes, place? If I remember correctly you interpret the lake of fire as being re-educated by the law? Is that your interpretation?

According to scripture: Those not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire . (Rev. 20:15)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire as well as the false prophet. (20:10)

Mattherw 25:41 says Those who aren't Christs are told to Depart from Him, they are cursed, and sent into the fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Yes. Those in the broad road will have to undergo destruction[be humbled] before finding life.



Where? And how?

Am I understanding your interpretation correct : Do you understand Jesus means only the few who enters in the way that leadeth to life will have immortal life? If so do you also believe that all the believers that entered the broad way never entered into the life path from the beginning? I believe that all the believers in the broad road have entered the life path that starts at Passover representing their conversion; however they never finished the path and have not entered the Pentecost and/or the Tabernacle spiritual growth level as opposed to the Overcomers that finished the complete LIFE PATH.

We see this dimension expressed by Jesus who worded that these believers (servants) that “knew his lord’s will” but “didn’t prepare himself… shall be beaten with many stripes” Lk 12:47 They are not prepared because they didn’t go thru Pentecost or/and Tabernacle. Jesus doesn’t say these servant will be annihilated or they will be killed but will suffer some lashes(whatever this means spiritually in application).

According to other parables, they will receive a lesser fate compare to the believers that are found beating their fellowservants. Jesus said of those that they will find their fate with the unbelievers.

Both of these fate is for the believers in the broader road that leads to destruction(=humbling) via some lashings or paying the full sum of their debts like the unbelievers. I will cover this more later.



I believe John 5:28,29 is about ONLY the 2nd resurrection
1- Do note that the Greek word for condemnation is krisis that means judgment. So this second group will face the judgment talked about in Rev 20 where all their works will be judged.

2-Notice Jesus says "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves". He's talking about an hour [or a point in time] when ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice. This can not be the 1st resurr. where only a few hears His voice. It can only be the 2nd resurrection. There’s a thousands years between the 1st resurr. and the 2nd. I don’t think that hour lasted 1000 year either.

This "ALL" of the 2nd resurr. has two groups:
1) the “good” to the resurr. of life -- the believers that didn't make it at the first resurrection and
2) the “evil” to the resurr. of judgment -- the unbelievers.

Jesus has presented many parables about the first group who He refers to as a “servant”, or "wicked servant" or “evil servant”. As you well know a servant is a believer.

Why the same wide road Believers are said to be “good” in John 5:28,29 while “wicked” in other Parables?

Why is Jesus referring to them as "wicked" in other parables and in John 5 here as "good". I don’t really know; but two things came to mind:
1)maybe Jesus is referencing these two groups by our own preconceived terms we have towards believers verses unbelievers. This is not unusual as He did the same thing when He gave the parable of the servant who was given 1 talent and buried it thinking His master was hard and reaped what was not his own without Jesus correcting His misrepresentation of Himself in this parable(Mat 25:24).
2)maybe the “good” and the “wicked” is not the difference between the believers and the unbelievers; but rather those that do “good works” versus those that do “evil works” without making a differentiation if they are believers or unbelievers. We all are guilty of doing “evil works” even the overcomers that made it to the 1st resurr. Also we know that many believers do not hear-obey the voice of God, whereas some unbelievers hear it while fulfilling the law without professing Jesus is Lord. So it could be that the “good” and the “wicked” is separated in terms of if we forgive our neighbor their debt towards us, nor mis-treat severily (either physically or mentally) especially those that are under our charge.

Narrow road that lead to life of the 1st ressur. and the Resurrection of life in the 2nd

In Mat 7 we have a division amongst the believers into two groups : the “fruitful” believers versus the “unfruitful” believers or as said in Mat 25:32,33 the Lords divides the believers between the sheep and the goats. The fruitful sheep believers are raised at the 1st resurr. while the “goats” believers resurrects at the 2nd resurr. where we find another division. This time it is “the ALL that are in the grave” that are divided again into 2 groups: the good and the wicked. The “good” (I’m assuming they are the believers) are raised to a resurrection of life while the “wicked” (assuming unbelievers) to a resurrection of judgment. I think the meaning of “resurrection of life” is the same as the “narrow gate that leadeth to life” found in Mat 7. The only difference is the group in Mat 7 received it before the Millennium while those in John 5 received it sometime after the Millennium after receiving their lashing(Luk 12:47,48) and having their “good” works tested against the foundation Jesus has laid(1Cor 3:10-13) that led to their destruction(humbling).

The “good” receives their reward and Life after being tested and receiving their Lashings

Do note that Paul says in 1C 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” So this text talks about the judgment of the believers or the “good” group where their works will be tested. If all their works are burned because it didn’t come from the Lord’s foundation and came from “stubbles” or “hay”(=flesh), he himself shall be saved because of that fire. The fact the person is not annihilated by that fire; prove that it is not a literal fire but spiritual that represents the Holy Spirit involved in this testing and purifying process of this believer. He may have some good works proven by this fire; but even if he ends up with none whatsoever that stood the test; he himself will be saved by that fire.

Nobody knows how long this testing last and the application of this text and the lashings constitute as this is not reveal in scripture and is reserve to be known during that age. But whatever time it will take to have this done, these two events will bring these believers into full maturity(=Tabernacle) and will receive their reward(some level of responsibility in the Kingdom) then and will receive the immortal and incorrupt body(=life).

Some believers receives their reward and are tormented with the unbelievers

Now some of these servants-beleivers raised at the 2nd resurr. were found mistreating others and the Bible is specific that their fate is with the unbelievers. In Mat 24:49 & Luk 12:46 we read the evil servant that "smite his fellowservants" the Lord shall "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers".
Another type is read in Mat 18 where Jesus speaks of a man that was forgiven a large debt; but then after didn't forgive the small debt of his fellowservant. The text doesn’t use the words that he beated him. But he probably did for the text says “he layed his hands on him and took him by the throat”(v.28) Regardless if he did or not, his judgment was with the unbelievers also by saying the Lord "delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto to him. "(v.34)
Do notice that in Mat 18 the evil servants was not physically destroyed but his sentence was to pay his entire debt. This is what is symbolized in the law of Jubilee. This would require another long post to go thru the scriptures describing the law of Jubilee. But this is the only place in the whole law where Redemption is defined – within the context of the law of Jubilee. We find many other laws in the Jubilee including paying their debt by being sold for their servitudes. Also it talks about not mistreating the servants-slaves that have rights including every 7th year a sabbatical rest. If the slaves are mistreated the law requires that he be freed. Basically the law of Jubilee is the frameworks and foundation where all other laws given to Moses works into.


Well, they have to undergo destruction[humbling] before they receive life.

Yes repentance leads to life.

And the wages of sin is death(Rom 6:23). Paul had covered this in Rom 5 that because of the sin and the act of one man(=Adam v.12, 15, 17, 18) – death was imputed to ALL MEN. This is the wages of sin that we carried such judgment since the sin of Adam by being made MORTAL. This is the 1st death that was imputed on all mankind because of the sin of Adam.

However, this was reversed by Jesus by imputing His righteousness & LIFE by the act of one man(=Jesus Christ v.15,16,17,18,19). Paul repeated this basic truth in so many ways to make sure we wouldn’t miss it. However, it looks that most still have missed it.

Life is postponed yes and no.

No -- Legally speaking concerning the Father’s point of view, the righteousness of Christ was successfully imputed on all men at the cross. Before the cross, we have in Isaiah 45 the Lord swore saying His word shall not return empty, that “every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Surely, shall one say “In the Lord have I righteousness and strength” .

The Lord, foreknowing the future, knew that He will lead all men to repentance from the beginning when He drew up His plan of salvation. He said it in so many other ways starting to Abraham saying His seed will bless all the families of the earth. He also been swearing that the whole earth will be filled with His Glory since Moses if not earlier. He repeated this at least 5 times in the Bible and I think much more than this.

Yes – the reality of it is postponed in time and will be done in 3 harvests:

1)the Barley company after 6000 years at Jesus 1st coming;
2)the Wheat company after the 7000 years at the Great White throne;
3)the grape company after 49,000 years at the Great Jubilee.

7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and there be many that enter that gate:
7:14 Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and there be few that find it.

The broad way -- is the easy way -- it requires no real commitment. It is the door of self gratification, and leads to destruction -- complete destruction, utter destruction, not just humbling.

The contrast is obvious--
One gate and path leads to life
The other gate and road leads to destruction.



Due to sin the human race all ended up on the road to utter destruction.

Christ came to save the lost -- *the perishing" human race which was facing nothing but utter destruction, oblivion --
Without Christ that was the only end point for humanity.

Christ OPENED another door -- the narrow gate that leads to life!

Because the Savior came -- we have a choice--
Continue to slide down the broad road to destruction,
or enter the narrow gate that leads to life.
That choice is presented in scripture as two gates. or doors.

Christ is that DOOR which few find!
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

To enter that door, one must "die" that "spiritual" death Paul speaks of --
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is the "dying daily" that Paul is speaking about. It is not the "second death" it is a dying to sin and living with Christ that MUST take place in this PRESENT LIFE.

It is KNOWING that Christ paid for our sins, (He took our punishment) and we long to be like Him in character -- loving Him.

The born again experience must happen in this life.



What you (Elle) are describing sounds like a revised version of purgatory -- forced repentance, (even though you say it's not forced) but there is no other way of looking at it with thousands of years of being "punished" for one's sins and of brain washing till the person breaks and accepts God.

They are not impenitent for once all truth is expose and they receive their judgment fitted for their crimes; then I believe is then Isaiah 45:23-24 will be fulfilled by bowing their knees(=submission) and swearing allegiance saying "the Lord is my righteousness and strength".



This is what I understand Jesus said in the following :

-in Ex 22:3 that "he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold", This is the basic law for the judgment of sin.

-in Mat 18:25 "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all hat he had, and payment to be made" You cannot be more direct than that and this comes from the mouth of Jesus. I believe this is a reference to Adam and goes with what Paul says in Rom 5 concerning the imputation of the MORTALITY on all mankind. Because of Adam sin's the whole humanity was sold under sin for Adam sin.

-in Rom 7:14 -- Paul says "I am carnal, sold under sin". Yes, Paul debt has been redeemed by Jesus when he said that; however the debt is still not cancel and He now works for Jesus instead for working under the bondage of sin. But he is still have a debt that his sin incurred; but he's paying it to His redeemer now. That's why he refers himself to a "servant[slave] of Jesus Christ"

-in Mat 18:30 of the man after being forgiven his large debt that didn't forgive the small debt of his fellowservants Jesus said "cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt" I can only see that the prison is the lake of fire, and this believer will be required to pay his entire debt. I don't if this judgment is so because he beated his fellowservants or only because he couldn't forgive the small debt. It's possible that it is based only on not being able to forgive for the Lord will judge you with the same measure you will judge others.

-in Deut 28:68 "ye shall be sold unto your enemies" Here the Lord applies this basic "sold" law on a corporate level for the nation of Israel whenever they were disobedient. If you read in the book of Judges, we see this exact wording "he sold them ...to..enemies"Jud 2:14 "he sold them ..to..Mesopotamia" Jud 3:8 "he sold them..to..Canaan" Jud 4:2 "he sold them...to the Philistine"Judge 10:7; The Lord sold Israel 6 times in total to other nation before they cried for to be ruled by a Man instead for they thought the Lord's judgment-correction was too severe. That did divert them being sold to nation somewhat, but then as you know on the 7th time Israel were "sold" to the Assyrian with the destruction verdict. So here we see the Lord gave small correction (judgments) before a bigger sentence - the destruction. However, once deported, Isaiah emmediatly talk about the restoration of Natural Israel in his letter. I do not see destruction equating to annihilation in scriptures even for the corporate level despite they underwent some physical destruction. Anyway the point that is being made right now is the "sold" judgment-concept is all over the Bible. That's the way the Lord dealt with His people in the past as prescribed in the law.

-in Lev 25:23 "the land shall not be sold for ever". This symbolic term "land" really apply to our body for we are made from the dust of the ground. Adam was named after the ground('adamah) he was taking from. The law of Jubilee talks about "returning to your possession" the spiritual application of the law is not a return to a physical piece of property on earth; it is about returning to our immortal & incorrupt body-land state Adam had before he fell -- the glorified body -- that the feast of Tabernacle pre-figures. This is the meaning of the Lord oath in Num 14 "But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with thee glory of the Lord".(see also Ps 72:19; Is 6:3; Hab 2:14) He's referring to all the people of the earth in these passages.

-Also the law of Jubilee talks about "all debts are cancelled" when the Jubilee time rolls over.

-Deut 15:12 Whoever is sold shall serve 6 years, then "the 7th year thou shalt let him go free from thee." This law goes hand in hands with Lev 25:4 where the Lord said to give the land a Sabbatical yearly rest. But after the Sabbath yearly rest, the slaves returns to work to pay for their debt that is owed, until it is fully paid or until the Jubilee rolls over. Whatever comes first. This is why the first Millennium after Jesus 2nd coming will be the first "Sabbath Millennium" cycle of the Jubilee. The Great White Throne judgment comes after the first Sabbath Millennium is completed. This is when the real judgment-business is addressed with these two groups of people raised at the 2nd resurr.

v.23 "...for the land in mine" Since the Lord is the owner of our body (and also the earth) no-one has the right to sell themselves "to the devil" for eternity. If we signed such contract, well the Lord trumps it with His law of Jubilee because He both owns the devil and us and no such deal is lawful.


As you know I did not equate the lake of fire as a "re-education process". The lake of fire is the execution of the sentenced issued at the Great White throne.

The "inhabitants learning righteousness when judgment is in the land"(Is 26:9) is a by-product of this judgment. This is the basic principle our own children learns also to do right when we corrects them.

The primary purpose of the lake of fire is to establish the lawful order in the land by fulfilling all of these :

-bringing justice to the victims for the damages incur,
-giving a chance for the offender to make it right to the victim with useful work towards paying for their debt,
-reconciling the victim with the offender,
-and to restore the offender

All of these goals are part of this "esbablishing the lawful order". And this can only be done justly by addressing sin with a rightful judgment that fits their crimes (the sentenced of restitution is just -- not less, nor greater than the damage incured) according to the law of judgments already given to Moses.

Do notice what the Lord says in Isaiah 26:10 "Let favour[mercy] be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD."

Overall, the last 6000 years, mercy was shown to the wicked, both to the wicked believers and the unbelievers. Today we can all witness and conclude that it did not produce righteousness or respect for the Lord with all this time or with all our increasing advance knowledge. We see this principle also while raising our own children. If we do not correct[bring judgment] their behavior; their behavior will get worst. If our judgment is not just and too harsh; it will not produce respect towards us. It is very important that our judgment is very fair to lead our children to respect us and to come to obey us and to learn the right way. Personally, what I have learnt that giving them a time of mercy with warning is a necessary foundation before bringing them our judgment-correction.



???Usury. A forgiveness of all debt is not a usury.



I'm not understanding your question.

-"the longest life of sin was only 696" -- Ok I think I got a little what you are saying. (Not that it matters, but wasn't it 969? or something around there). Remember that death and hades was cast in the lake of fire(Rev 20:14) before the people were cast in(Rev 20:15). Thus these people will live the fullest time of 42,000 years until the Great Jubilee rolls over. No one will die again the 1st death. Despite they will be kept alive all these years, they won't have their immortal and uncorrupt body until the Great Jubilee comes. Thus they will still struggle with the "flesh" and will learn to hear-obey the Lord's voice like any other people that received their inheritance before them.


I don't understand what you mean with "get in because of the Jubilee limit".

Remember they have come to repentance before being cast into the symbolic lake of fire. When someone repents & submit to the Lord, it doesn't mean all the laws are automatically written in our hearts. We all know that. We are all [supposively] learning to hear-obey the Lord.

There is a physical birth and a spiritual birth[born of the Spirit].
There is a physical death and a spiritual death[death of the mind].
There is a physical destruction and a spiritual destruction[destruction of the pride].

These are all biblical concepts talked about all over scriptures.



I have responded to this already two times. This is the last since there is no point in just repeating ourselves over and over again. I have understood your point of view and I think by now you know mine.

When Paul(or yourself) dies daily[submission of the mind to the will of God], you do not become a vegetable. What I think is totally unreasonable you stubbornly apply a physical death of the mind(soul) to an obvious spiritual death reference of the (mind)soul that we Christian should undergo everyday like Paul. Makes no sense.



BTW. Have you ate the physical flesh and drank the physical blood of Jesus? If not you have no life in you.

AV Jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Well during the Millennium is a time to establish the kingdom by which will start small and grow into a mountain and that mountain will fill the whole earth (Dn 2:36) There will be some teachings as any denomination do while on an evangelistic ministry. But the real learning of Righteousness will happen when the Judgment will come on the earth AFTER the Millennium.

I don't think there will be much judgment at Jesus 2nd coming beside all the nations flowing to the Kingdom to learn the wisdom and judgments of the Lord as said in Isaiah 2:2.

Now if all dies at Jesus 2nd coming like you believe and our Churches teaches, who will the Priests rule over during the Millennium? Where will be the nations and the People mentioned in Ezekiel 42-44 that the Priest will intercede on their behalf? Which people will flow to the mountain of the Lord in Isaiah 2:2? People from other planets?


You may disagree. That's ok.


You stubbornly do not want to admit the obvious which makes you sound very unreasonable while exposing your heart idol despite scriptures.

The obvious : Paul didn't die a physical death ; thus it must be a spiritual -- like the submission of the mind to the will of the Lord. Connection with Ezekiel -- soul(mind) must die = same spiritual death Paul dies daily.


hmmm...So you say the 1st death and the 2nd death is the same???

Do you believe that the 1st birth and the 2nd birth is the same too?

And what type of death did Paul died daily ??? the 3rd death?

I thought the Lake of Fire was for the purpose of learning what people didn't learn the first time around. I clearly have no clue what you're proposing. For my sake, please explain what will literally happen from the 2nd coming and onward; only say "lake of Fire" if you actually mean a lake made of fire. I'm obviously confused, so please keep it simple for me. Thanks.