Are you sure?

In the passage God has proclaimed that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear...
To kneel and to swear does involve complete recognition of the sovereignty, justice and power of the One to whom they bow -- that's true enough. It does not follow, however that this is a picture of universal repentance or of salvation.

There is a sharp juxtaposition in the following verse.

"Only in the LORD, it is said of me, is righteousness and strength; even to him shall men come; and all those who were incensed against him shall be disappointed." HNV

"“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. NASB

"They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are deliverance and strength.’ ” All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.

The enemies of Jehovah are inflamed; enraged; angry, their attitude is not one of loving worship, they are active in indignation against the very ONE Whose glory and justice they can't help but honor and acknowledge.

But you did say:

Yes -- "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezk 18:4

Notice in the above text it specifies that it is the SOUL that must die, not the body.

ProdigalOne answer was not contrary to any Adventist teaching.
The church (and scripture) has always taught that when a person dies, he ceases to exist. The body infused with God's breath of life is a living soul. When the breath of life departs, the whole person is DEAD.

As far as identifying "ruwach" spirit and "neshamah" spirit and soul, these words are at times used interchangeably,

... thus not making it logical to classify them in separate boxes. (That would be for another thread)
We do know that God gives the "breath of life" that quickens the body into a living soul.

When that "breath of life" is gone, the person is dead.
What returns to God? God's life giving breath, but I also believe an exact transcript of the person's "soul" their character, thought patterns and individuality also returns to God -- sort of like a computer disk with the full digitized details what that person was. (Though God would have far superior methods than computer disks) At the resurrection all that information is restored into the resurrected new body-- we will be who we were before the first death. The soul is not an identity of it's own -- it has no life apart from the body, but God will have an exact transcript of the "soul" of every individual.

BUT I must clarify -- what I said about the "soul" earlier is NOT exactly what you were saying at all.

I was saying that if this destruction at the end of the wide road means, as you wrote, that the soul is destroyed (but the body stays alive) then the ability to think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. would be destroyed.

dedication : When a soul dies, the individual is no more.

Elle : I disagree. When a soul(mind) repents and submits(=spiritual death = the 2nd death) to the Spirit, the persons still is around until his body decays into the natural death(=physical death = the 1st death).

dedication : Also a soul CANNOT live with out the body.
When the body dies, the soul is dead.

Elle: I agree on the physical level --the physical brain[=body] needs to be functioning for the soul[mind] to exist. However there's two deaths like there's two births: the first being a physical death(or birth) and the second, a spiritual death(or birth). Death on the Physical level = no functionality of body or soul. Death on the Spiritual level when the mind[=soul] repents & submits, the body is still just there and the mind is still there.

dedication : Now a body or object can live without a soul -- but it can't think, reason, choose, or have emotions -- it is a mere vegetable or plant. It has no character.

Elle : I think we are saying the same thing -- the soul is the mind. We believe the same thing here, but of course you don't make the soul=mind association


dedication: What does Paul mean when he says "I die daily"?
No, it does not mean the soul dies, or that the body dies daily. (That can't happen "daily" for once the body with the soul dies, it's dead)

Elle : I never said the soul can live outside the body. Re-read my post and above.

The soul is the "essence" of the individual, thus if his soul is destroyed, his very personhood would be destroyed.
What would be left, if the soul was destroyed but the body still alive? Just some mindless, emotionless robots bowing before the throne.

Thus that text in Matthew cannot be explained as the transformation that takes place in a repentant person's heart and mind when he/she comes to Christ. The soul is NOT destroyed by sanctification. It is transformed, not destroyed.

The text in Matthew has a clear juxtaposition.

Strait gate and narrow path LEADS TO EVERLASTING LIFE.
Wide gate and broad road LEADS TO DESTRUCTION.

Everlasting life is one destination at the end of one road.
Destruction (not re-education), is the destination at the end of the other road.

No. you are mis-representing what I said and I had clarified that to you by addressing every false assumption you had made of what I had said or implied.

In brief, my point in quoting Ezk 18:4 -- it is in the mind(=soul) that sin take place, and it is also in the mind someone repents -- which is a SPIRITUAL Death -- the death of that old person that is symbolized at baptism and we are raised to a new person that now submit our mind(soul) to the direction and leading of the Lord Jesus-Christ.

This is the death -- the Spiritual death that I believe Paul dies daily. Paul does not die daily a Physical death.

Your speculation above is "what dedication thinks" and dedication deduced this

We see below that you can only see the mind-Soul Death in a Physical plane, while I'm saying there's also a Spiritual mind-soul death -- the repentance and submission of the mind. This you do not want to make this association or acknowledge that there such repentance that takes place in the mind.

Re-read my post about it. You are not even in context of what Jesus used the "narrow gate" teachings. You cannot just add your interpretation, without first studying in what context Jesus was using this for and what He has said about it.

I even left out the Greek and Hebrew definition of "DESTRUCTION" because my post was getting too long.
To give you a "tease" -- Jesus said the following :

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost[apollumi, "to destroy fully"]" Mat 18:11

The word apollumi means "to destroy fully". So we could translate Mat 18:11 as "the Son of man is come to save that which was destroy" Destruction does not mean what you or Asygo has interpretated it to mean -- as the end road -- no salvation & complete annihilation.

No. you are mis-representing what I said and I had clarified that to you by addressing every false assumption you had made of what I had said or implied. So here it appears that you deliberately mis-represent what I said to you after I had clarified what you did not understand beforehand. I hope it is not a deliberate mis-representation. I will repeat myself one more time, so there's no more of these assumption and mis-representation. Be careful.

In brief, my point in quoting Ezk 18:4 -- it is in the mind(=soul) that sin take place, and it is also in the mind someone repents -- which is a SPIRITUAL Death -- the death of that old person that is symbolized at baptism and we are raised to a new person that now submit our mind(soul) to the direction and leading of the Lord Jesus-Christ. This is the death -- the Spiritual death that I believe Paul dies daily. Paul does not die daily a Physical death.

That was my point, and my only point and my long post assert this. What you and Alchemy went on about the physical soul cannot live without the physical body and so on and so forth -- I never said so nor implied it or even was talking about the physical plane -- I was talking about the SPIRITUAL plane.

My association to that text and point was simply there's a SPIRITUAL Death.


???ProdigalOne said the body goes to scheol -- scripture or our Church doesn't say that. The body returns back to dust and to the ground. That's what scripture teaches.


Not true. These words are very different. They are not even spelled with the same Hebrew letters. Not even related words by the Hebrew lettering definition -- as each Hebrew letter is a word that the sum of them define the whole word. The simple fact these words don't have the same letters, these words are not the same.

Nice try. I know you were trying to save ProdigalOne mistakes.



Anyone can make some speculation and define things what they think it means. But what matters and what stand is how the Lord defines things in scripture and what He teaches us these to mean via personal revelation in our life.

Your speculation above is "what dedication thinks" and dedication deduced this by saying ruach and nshamah is the same word. Your foundation is not strong if you have the attitude to not pay attention to the words the Lord's uses to expressed things.


You define soul as "think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character." and the "essence" of the individual. And that is exactly my definition of the soul also. And this is exactly the defintion of the mind too. The only thing I have done that you haven't is I took another step and said Soul = Mind. You didn't do that or say that, but by definition you said that.


I have already addressed that same objection of yours in the other exchanged we had.

Let me quote what we previously exchange. We see below that you can only see the mind-Soul Death in a Physical plane, while I'm saying there's also a Spiritual mind-soul death -- the repentance and submission of the mind. This you do not want to make this association or acknowledge that there such repentance that takes place in the mind.

Probably its because you absolutely don't want to make either association of mind-soul or this spiritual death is the second death. I can understand that is the main problem for that gives an opening to take Rev 20 and the lake of fire symbolically. I will add to my reply in green to give more clarity when necessary. But I know clarification is not what you want.





I agree, as I have confirmed above also. On the physical level when the soul is destroyed, then if the body is still ticking, I agreed with you that the person is mindless. But I DID NOT SAY the soul is being destroyed on a physical level at the Great White throne -- I said very clearly and repetively that the soul dies on a SPIRITUAL LEVEL= repentance of the MIND-soul being my main POINT. Stop mis-representing what I said.


A humbling is a destruction of the mind in the sense that your esteem of your reasoning, of your great decisions you've made, of how great your wisdom is, and etc... all that take place in the mind and this needs to be destroyed before we come to repentance and take the road to salvation. There's lots of text in prophecies where the Lord tells us how He will destroy us by humbling us. The Lord humbling us is part of the plan of salvation and is a necessary step before He can transform us. He has to knock down all those hyped-mountains-of-trust-in-our-abilities-in-our-mind so to prepare the way for the Lord sanctification.


Re-read my post about it. You are not even in context of what Jesus used the "narrow gate" teachings. You cannot just add your interpretation, without first studying in what context Jesus was using this for and what He has said about it.

If my rendering of what was said in scriptures is not correct then bring that specifically and let's address that.

I even left out the Greek and Hebrew definition of "DESTRUCTION" because my post was getting too long. Good thing for I was annoying Asygo. But the word used for "destruction" has to be looked at.

To give you a "tease" -- Jesus said the following :

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost[apollumi, "to destroy fully"]" Mat 18:11

The word apollumi means "to destroy fully". So we could translate Mat 18:11 as "the Son of man is come to save that which was destroy" Destruction does not mean what you or Asygo has interpretated it to mean -- as the end road -- no salvation & complete annihilation.

Jesus said He came to save what was lost(destroyed). He cannot save those that still have faith in their superior MIND's ability to choose their own ways, to know their own truth, and etc... He has to destroy that trust of their Superior Mind[its ability to choose their own ways via knowledge] FIRST, before there's a chance for them to get into the path of life-salvation.

You bring on definition of words derived from English translation and defined by the world dictionary and phylosophy of the world. You need to go beyond the world's definition of words and its English translation of scriptures, and the Church interpretation of scriptures. You need to seek the Lord's definition, meanings, and interpretation.

Elle,

After looking at many of your posts, it seems to me that you are doing a lot of copying and pasting from another source, which tells me that these are not your original thoughts, but that you are in agreement in those thoughts.

I am not saying that it is wrong for you to do this, but am just wondering if that is what you are doing.

Am I correct in my assumption?

Perhaps we need to define the word "Sheol"?

Strong's #7585: "grave, hell, pit". "A noun meaning the world of the dead, Sheol, the grave, death, the depths. The word describes the underworld but usually in the sense of the grave and is most often translated grave."


"The body returns back to dust and to the ground. That's what scripture teaches."

I agree. Since the word Sheol means the grave, your euphemistic reference to it as "the body returns to the dust and to the ground" (the grave) seems to line up with my understanding.

I believe the physical body does in fact go to "Sheol" when it dies.
Do you have some alternate definition of "Sheol" that suggests that I am not in agreement with Scripture and the Church?

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.


The text clearly says
the narrow road leads to life
the broad way leads to destruction

Life and destruction are the two destinations open to mankind.
Which will we choose.

To spiritualize away the obvious meaning would be to say
Those who enter the narrow gate don't have to die "the spiritual death" their minds are left intact, and they will live.
Those who enter the wide gate, have to "die the spiritual death" and they too will have life.

That is NOT correct interpretation.


Without Christ the world was doomed for utter and complete destruction.

apoleia G684

destroying, utter destruction
perishing, ruin, destruction

Yes, it does mean utter destruction at the end of the road.

Jesus said He came to save what was lost (perishing-- heading for utter destruction).

But thanks to Jesus coming to save us, we don't have to go down that broad road that is leading to utter destruction.
If we come to Christ NOW, in this life, in repentance and trust, He will save us, -- that is the narrow road that leads to life.
It's the ONLY road to LIFE.