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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Elle]
#179854
03/17/16 06:46 AM
03/17/16 06:46 AM
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Does the Hebrew word Ratsach H7523 always and only meam murder? No.
Numbers 35:11 Then you shall appointH7136 you citiesH5892 to beH1961 citiesH5892 of refugeH4733 for you; that the slayerH7523 may fleeH5127 thither,H8033 which killsH5221 any personH5315 at unawares.H7684 Numbers 35:12 And they shall beH1961 to you citiesH5892 for refugeH4733 from the avenger;H4480 H1350 that the manslayerH7523 dieH4191 not,H3808 untilH5704 he standH5975 beforeH6440 the congregationH5712 in judgment.H4941
Deuteronomy 4:42 That the slayerH7523 might fleeH5127 thither,H8033 whichH834 should killH7523 (H853) his neighborH7453 unawares,H1097 H1847 and hatedH8130 him notH3808 in times past;H4480 H8543 H8032 and that fleeingH5127 toH413 oneH259 ofH4480 theseH411 citiesH5892 he might live:H2425
So no, Ratsach does not always and only mean murder. Deuteronomy 4:42 even speaks of whether hatred is involved. To say that in the 10C that the word only and always means murder is not sustained.
Your deduction is based on English translation? I think that a very poor way to come to that conclusion. Ratsach means "to break or dash in pieces" The man in Number 35:11, 12 & are both in the case of a [pre-meditated] murderer. The man in Deut 4:42 is in the case of a man that is innocent and did not murder, however, until the court can prove his innocence, he has to run to a city of refuge for if not the avenger of blood(ga'al) can murder[ratsach) him. So the text employs the word ratsach because he has to run as a murderer (ratsach). As I was looking at all the Hebrew words for "kill" -- I was very surprise to see that scripture uses ratsach for the Avenger of Blood to murder(ratsach) the murderer(ratsach). AV Num 35:27 And the revenger of blood(ga'al) find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood(ga'al) kill(ratsach) the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:The ga'al is the family's defender in a court of law. He is either a redeemer of blood or an avenger of blood depending on the case. So in a case of a family member get's into debt due to an offense, or business misfortune; the ga'al is responsible to redeem His next of kin's debt. In the situation where any member of his family is a victim of a crime; the ga'al is responsible to make sure that full justice is rendered. So in the case that someone murder(or kill by accident) someone of his family, the ga'al have the right to kill(ratsach) that person if he's outside a city of refuge. In the case of the slayer is found innocent in the city of refuge court, that man has to stay in the city of refuge as long as the High Priest is alive. Once the High Priest dies, only then that man that killed accidently can return to his land. If the man leaves the city of refuge, despite he is found innocent before the High Priest death, the avenger of blood(ga'al) can kill(ratsach) him. That's what Num 35 says. This all means something prophetically via how the Lord will judge at the Great White throne for cases of murder. Without digressing into that, I found it quite surprising that the Avenger of blood is said that he can murder (ratsach) that man. There's 5 other Hebrew "killing" words that could of been used instead; but for the Lord to use this word must mean something that I'm not seeing right now. The ga'al, either redeemer of blood or the avenger of blood, both represent Jesus. So Green we did find one place in the Bible where the Lord ratsach .... there it is. The Lord has allowed Himself to ratsach in His own law. Very interesting post. The best I can see right now is, the avenger of blood doesn't really know if the man he is seeking is innocent or guilty. But, even if the man he is seeking is found innocent, as long as that present High Priest is alive, the avenger of blood can still kill the man he seeks and it won't count as murder, or as blood. I have always wondered and never understood what the life of the High Priest really had to do with this? I know the High Priest performs the rituals for the Day of Atonement, but, if that particular High Priest dies, then, and only then, is the man who killed someone accidentally completely free to live anywhere he wants. Even if he is found innocent, the Avenger of Blood can still kill him if he finds him outside the city of refuge. I wonder how often one such man would move from one city of refuge to another? Or to another city of any kind?
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#179855
03/17/16 07:07 AM
03/17/16 07:07 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Alchemy,
Remember, there were no sacrifices for willful sins, only for sins of ignorance. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Jesus died that we might have pardon. The type here is consistent with the rest of the scriptures.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#179858
03/17/16 08:07 AM
03/17/16 08:07 AM
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Asia
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Alchemy,
Remember, there were no sacrifices for willful sins, only for sins of ignorance. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Jesus died that we might have pardon. The type here is consistent with the rest of the scriptures.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. I have never thought of it that way before. No sacrifice for willful sins? I must disagree. Unless I misunderstand something.
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Alchemy]
#179859
03/17/16 12:46 PM
03/17/16 12:46 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Alchemy,
Remember, there were no sacrifices for willful sins, only for sins of ignorance. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Jesus died that we might have pardon. The type here is consistent with the rest of the scriptures.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. I have never thought of it that way before. No sacrifice for willful sins? I must disagree. Unless I misunderstand something. Not knowing what you understand, I don't know if you are misunderstanding or not, but perhaps so. Three chapters speak specifically to this: Leviticus 4 & 5, and Numbers 15. Check them out. Note from that latter chapter what happens to the one who sinned presumptuously, and not through ignorance. Defining words for this topic: ignorance, presumptuously, willfully, sacrifice, atonement, forgiven, judgment, "cut off" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#179860
03/17/16 12:54 PM
03/17/16 12:54 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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You are correct that the Bible is not saying a person is a murderer for killing someone unawares. What it is saying here instead is that the person is considered a murderer, even if he may not be, until he's been tried, and, murderer or not, he must flee to the city for refuge. Of course that is not how the word is used in the verse. The verse is not calling the person a murder and is specifically showing the person is not a murder, yet is using the work ratsach. You are adding a layer on to the interpretation. It is a sad commentary that the cities of refuge were needed to protect people from other Israelites, being so opposed to the truth that Jesus showed on how we treat others, even those that kill. Sin is an enemy, and it causes death. The cities of refuse are a type of Christ and should be understood that way.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: APL]
#179861
03/17/16 01:14 PM
03/17/16 01:14 PM
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Of course that is not how the word is used in the verse. The verse is not calling the person a murder and is specifically showing the person is not a murder, yet is using the work ratsach. You are adding a layer on to the interpretation.
It is a sad commentary that the cities of refuge were needed to protect people from other Israelites, being so opposed to the truth that Jesus showed on how we treat others, even those that kill. Sin is an enemy, and it causes death. The cities of refuse are a type of Christ and should be understood that way. APL, For the sake of discussion here, suppose I accept your interpretation on this verse to be correct. Where is your second verse? Are you going to tell me that you would build up an entire theology on one verse alone? Where is the other verse that uses "ratsach" for a non-murderer that is already beyond question (tried and acquitted already)? One of the key principles of Bible study means we mustn't base our doctrines on a single text alone. The scriptures define this for us by telling us that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. So, we need another witness. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#179862
03/17/16 01:53 PM
03/17/16 01:53 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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For the sake of discussion here, suppose I accept your interpretation on this verse to be correct. Where is your second verse? Are you going to tell me that you would build up an entire theology on one verse alone? Where is the other verse that uses "ratsach" for a non-murderer that is already beyond question (tried and acquitted already)?
One of the key principles of Bible study means we mustn't base our doctrines on a single text alone. The scriptures define this for us by telling us that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. So, we need another witness. Numbers 35:11, not intentional. But more importantly, what does the commandment, You shall not kill, really mean? It is much more than the immediate taking of life as Jesus has shown. Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Here is the true testimony of God.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: APL]
#179863
03/17/16 02:51 PM
03/17/16 02:51 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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For the sake of discussion here, suppose I accept your interpretation on this verse to be correct. Where is your second verse? Are you going to tell me that you would build up an entire theology on one verse alone? Where is the other verse that uses "ratsach" for a non-murderer that is already beyond question (tried and acquitted already)?
One of the key principles of Bible study means we mustn't base our doctrines on a single text alone. The scriptures define this for us by telling us that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. So, we need another witness. Numbers 35:11, not intentional. But more importantly, what does the commandment, You shall not kill, really mean? It is much more than the immediate taking of life as Jesus has shown. Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Here is the true testimony of God. Yes, I agree with APL ratsach definition is more than murdering or killing; it's about whether or not we hate our brother like Jesus brings forth the definition more deeply. That "hate" factor in the definition was also given to Moses in the following as underlined: AV Dt 4:42 " That the slayer might flee thither, which should kill his neighbour unawares, and hated him not in times past; and that fleeing unto one of these cities he might live:" and also in AV Dt 19:4 " And this [is] the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past;" AV Dt 19:6 " Lest the avenger of the blood pursue the slayer, while his heart is hot, and overtake him, because the way is long, and slay him; whereas he [was] not worthy of death, inasmuch as he hated him not in time past." AV Dt 19:11 " But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:" The law of God is all about loving thy Lord and thy neighbor. Even if you technically didn't kill your brother and didn't have the need "to run to a refuge city" -- but still hated your brother and probably do take opportunity to "rise up against him"; Jesus is basically saying you are still guilty of the penalty of breaking the 6th commandment of "ratsach". So that's going a little deeper into the surface literal definition of the word. There's a spiritual definition of that word also. And that's a principle that we find all over scriptures.
Blessings
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Elle]
#179864
03/17/16 03:41 PM
03/17/16 03:41 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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BTW -- can someone briefly update me of what's this looking up these words Kill and murder for exactly? What is Green trying to prove as a definition, and what is APL definition is. I'm not aware of what's all of this is about.
another BTW. there is 4 other Hebrew words that means kill that dedication didn't bring on the table.
The one that is closest in meaning to ratsach is harag.
H2026 - harag "to smite with deadly intent" slay 100x, kill 24x, murder 2x
1-Cain slay(harag) Abel 2- Simeon and Levi when they slayed that whole city 3- The Lord slay the firstborn of Egypt 4- The people was slayed after the Golden calf 5- The Israelites slayed the Midianites 6- When the Israelites entered Canaan they slay(harag) the nations 7-the death sentences in the laws of judgments 8-to slay animals to eat during the Tabernacle feasts
H4191 -- mooth or muwth "to die (lit.or fig.); causatively, to kill" die 424x, slay 100x, dead 130x, death 83x, kill 31x 1-This word is used when the Lord wanted to kill the nation of Israel. 2-when He said to Adam that if he eats the forbidden "he shall surely die". 3-Also the Lord used this word to say "I kill and make alive".
H2873 -- tabach "to slaughter" kill 4x, slaughter 4x, slay 2x
1-to slaughter a sheep 2-for food
H7819 - Shachat "to slaughter, beat, or massacre" kill 42x, slay 36x
1-kill the animals for the offerings 2-kill children for offerings to Baal
Blessings
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Re: The Power of Words -- Why Definitions Matter
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#179865
03/17/16 04:40 PM
03/17/16 04:40 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Elle,
The purpose of looking at definitions is to make sure that the theologies built upon these foundation stones are sound.
If we look carefully at the fact that the Bible defines "ratsach" as a type of killing involving hatred, and this is the word used in the Ten Commandments forbidding such acts, then we can understand better when a different word describes killing that God commands.
If we begin with the false assumption that all kinds of killing are essentially the same, and therefore are addressed by the sixth commandment, we soon find contradictions in the Bible, such as when God commanded that the Sabbath-breaker be stoned to death. A God who would break His own commandments would not be trustworthy, and this leads to many other wrong interpretations, such as that God did not command according to His "ideal will," and that He just told the people to do what He knew they would do anyway because of the "hardness of their hearts." Such interpretations cannot be supported by scripture.
The next logical step many make, based on their mis-definition of the "kill" in the KJV translation for the sixth commandment, is to say that God would never kill. This is a growing movement, and a false theology. APL is caught up in it, unfortunately, and thousands of others too. The problem in this theology actually traces all the way back to the initial definitions and/or mis-definitions upon which their view is based.
This thread is not particularly about whether or not God kills. It's about definitions. This is simply one definition that many people misunderstand. There are others. This topic is open for discussion on any type of Biblical definition upon which misunderstandings have led to wrong theologies.
Any Biblical definition that is misunderstood can have fearful effects on one's theology. Perhaps this is why we are told to study carefully in more than one passage.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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