Did God do wrong in not murdering Cain when he murdered Able? Did God do wrong when He did not murder Satan when he sinned, for Satan has been a murderer from the beginning? Shall we murder murderers today on the testimony of multiple witnesses? Are you willing to take part? Does Jesus's teaching give us any other view of what God really wants? Does Numbers 35:30 negate the 6th commandment which says not to kill (murder in your translation), yet this says you may murder if 2 or 3 agree.

There is a deeper reality here, and it is called the Great Controversy. And the answer to the controversy is illuminating in its influence and saving in its power, "Behold your God."

APL,

None of the above is a "thus saith the LORD" to support your opinion.

I have many texts that provide a "thus saith the LORD" to answer some of that, however. Some have already been posted here, but you did not reply.

FACT: God commands us not to murder (Ex. 20:13).
FACT: God commanded certain types of killing (Num. 15:35, Ex. 19:12-13; 21:12,15-17,29; 22:19; 31:14-15, etc).
FACT: God does not lie (Num. 23:19).
FACT: God tells us He is the same and does not change (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8).


When you can, like me, align those facts with Bible texts to support them, you'll be on your way to a better understanding.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

REFERENCE	ANNOTATED AND CROSS-LINKED TEXT
Exo 1:16	And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill (muwth) H4191 him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
Exo 19:12	And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely (muwth) H4191 put to death: (muwth) H4191
Exo 19:13	There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely (caqal) H5619 be stoned, (caqal) H5619 or shot (yarah) H3384 through; (yarah) H3384 whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: (chayah) H2421 when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
Exo 21:12	He that smiteth (nakah) H5221 a man, so that he die, (muwth) H4191 shall be surely (muwth) H4191 put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 21:15	And he that smiteth (nakah) H5221 his father, or his mother, shall be surely (muwth) H4191 put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 21:16	And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 21:17	And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 21:29	But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed (muwth) H4191 a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, (caqal) H5619 and his owner also shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 22:19	Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 29:11	And thou shalt kill (shachat) H7819 the bullock before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Exo 31:14	Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death: (muwth) H4191 for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off (karath) H3772 from among his people.
Exo 31:15	Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Exo 35:2	Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Lev 1:5	And he shall kill (shachat) H7819 the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, (dam) H1818 and sprinkle the blood (dam) H1818 round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 14:13	And he shall slay (shachat) H7819 the lamb in the place where he shall kill (shachat) H7819 the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:
Lev 14:19	And the priest shall offer the sin offering, and make an atonement for him that is to be cleansed from his uncleanness; and afterward he shall kill (shachat) H7819 the burnt offering:
Lev 19:20	And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, (muwth) H4191 because she was not free.
Lev 20:2	Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death: (muwth) H4191 the people of the land shall stone (ragam) H7275 him with stones. ('eben) H68
Lev 20:9	For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely (muwth) H4191 put to death: (muwth) H4191 he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood (dam) H1818 shall be upon him.
Lev 20:10	And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Lev 20:11	And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death; (muwth) H4191 their blood (dam) H1818 shall be upon them.
Lev 20:12	And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death: (muwth) H4191 they have wrought confusion; their blood (dam) H1818 shall be upon them.
Lev 20:13	If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death; (muwth) H4191 their blood (dam) H1818 shall be upon them.
Lev 20:15	And if a man lie903 with a beast, he shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death: (muwth) H4191 and ye shall slay (harag) H2026 the beast.
Lev 20:16	And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill (harag) H2026 the woman, and the beast: they shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death; (muwth) H4191 their blood (dam) H1818 shall be upon them.
Lev 20:20	And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die (muwth) H4191 childless.
Lev 20:27	A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death: (muwth) H4191 they shall stone (ragam) H7275 them with stones: ('eben) H68 their blood (dam) H1818 shall be upon them.
Lev 24:16	And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death, (muwth) H4191 and all the congregation shall certainly (ragam) H7275 stone (ragam) H7275 him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Lev 24:17	And he that killeth (nakah) H5221 any man shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Lev 24:21	And he that killeth (nakah) H5221 a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth (nakah) H5221 a man, he shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Lev 27:29	None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 1:51	And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 3:10	And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 3:38	But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 14:35	I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die. (muwth) H4191
Num 15:35	And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely (muwth) H4191 put to death: (muwth) H4191 all the congregation shall stone (ragam) H7275 him with stones ('eben) H68 without the camp.
Num 18:7	Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 20:26	And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die (muwth) H4191 there.
Num 35:16	And if he smite (nakah) H5221 him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, (muwth) H4191 he is a murderer: (ratsach) H7523 the murderer (ratsach) H7523 shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 35:17	And if he smite (nakah) H5221 him with throwing a stone, ('eben) H68 wherewith he may die, (muwth) H4191 and he die, (muwth) H4191 he is a murderer: (ratsach) H7523 the murderer (ratsach) H7523 shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 35:18	Or if he smite (nakah) H5221 him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, (muwth) H4191 and he die, (muwth) H4191 he is a murderer: (ratsach) H7523 the murderer (ratsach) H7523 shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Num 35:21	Or in enmity smite (nakah) H5221 him with his hand, that he die: (muwth) H4191 he that smote (nakah) H5221 him shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death; (muwth) H4191 for he is a murderer: (ratsach) H7523 the revenger of blood (dam) H1818 shall slay (muwth) H4191 the murderer, (ratsach) H7523 when he meeteth him.
Num 35:30	Whoso killeth (nakah) H5221 any person, the murderer (ratsach) H7523 shall be put to death (ratsach) H7523 by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. (muwth) H4191
Num 35:31	Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, (ratsach) H7523 which is guilty of death: (muwth) H4191 but he shall be surely (muwth) H4191 put to death. (muwth) H4191
Deu 12:21	If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.
Deu 13:5	And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; (muwth) H4191 because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Deu 13:10	And thou shalt stone (caqal) H5619 him with stones, ('eben) H68 that he die; (muwth) H4191 because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 17:6	At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death (muwth) H4191 be put to death; (muwth) H4191 but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. (muwth) H4191
Deu 17:12	And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: (muwth) H4191 and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
Deu 18:20	But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. (muwth) H4191
Deu 21:21	And all the men of his city shall stone (ragam) H7275 him with stones, ('eben) H68 that he die: (muwth) H4191 so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deu 21:22	¶ And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, (muwth) H4191 and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23	His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Deu 22:25	But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: (muwth) H4191
Deu 24:7	If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; (muwth) H4191 and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
Deu 24:16	The fathers shall not be put to death (muwth) H4191 for the children, neither shall the children be put to death (muwth) H4191 for the fathers: every man shall be put to death (muwth) H4191 for his own sin.
Jos 1:18	Whosoever he be that doth rebel against thy commandment, and will not hearken unto thy words in all that thou commandest him, he shall be put to death: (muwth) H4191 only be strong and of a good courage.
Jdg 6:31	And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death (muwth) H4191 whilst it is yet morning: if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar.
Jdg 21:5	And the children of Israel said, Who is there among all the tribes of Israel that came not up with the congregation unto the LORD? For they had made a great oath concerning him that came not up to the LORD to Mizpeh, saying, He shall surely (muwth) H4191 be put to death. (muwth) H4191
1Sa 11:13	And Saul said, There shall not a man be put to death (muwth) H4191 this day: for to day the LORD hath wrought salvation in Israel.
2Sa 8:2	And he smote (nakah) H5221 Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he to put to death, (muwth) H4191 and with one full line to keep alive. (chayah) H2421 And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
2Sa 19:21	But Abishai the son of Zeruiah answered and said, Shall not Shimei be put to death (muwth) H4191 for this, because he cursed the LORD'S anointed?
2Sa 19:22	And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death (muwth) H4191 this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?
2Sa 21:9	And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death (muwth) H4191 in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.
1Ki 2:24	Now therefore, as the LORD liveth, which hath established me, and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, Adonijah shall be put to death (muwth) H4191 this day.
2Ki 14:6	But the children of the murderers (nakah) H5221 he slew (muwth) H4191 not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death (muwth) H4191 for the children, nor the children be put to death (muwth) H4191 for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death (muwth) H4191 for his own sin.
2Ch 25:4	But he slew (muwth) H4191 not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die (muwth) H4191 for the children, neither shall the children die (muwth) H4191 for the fathers, but every man shall die (muwth) H4191 for his own sin.

 

Blessings,

 

Green Cochoa.

Why did you ignore Numbers 35:30 in your reply? Is that because it goes against your argument? Also why are you ignoring the testimony of Christ?

I am addressing one thing at a time, as I have time. However, let's address this verse in a very careful, scholarly manner.

Num 35:30	Whoso killeth (nakah) H5221 any person, H5315 the murderer (ratsach) H7523 shall be put to death (ratsach) H7523 by the mouth H6310 of witnesses: H5707 but one H259 witness H5707 shall not testify H6030 against any person H5315 to cause him to die. H4191

Look carefully at the wording there in the Hebrew. Essentially, the Hebrew is saying this:

". . . the murderer murderer by the mouth of witnesses . . ."

Murderers were to be put to death, but that wording was added to this verse. It's not in the original. The original, instead, says simply that a murderer was a murderer by the mouth of witnesses.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I wasn't understanding what you guys were arguing about.

I disagree with Green rendering of Num 35:30. I read it as, once the murderer has been trialed and has been proven guilty by the mouth of two witnesses, the murderer[ratsach] will be murdered[ratsach] [by the avenger of blood].

Not stoned like most cases of the other judgments, but the murderer[ratsach] will be murdered[ratsach]. This is specified in Number 35:19; 21; and 27. Basically an eye for an eye or in this case a murder for a murder.

AV Num 35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill[ratsach] the slayer[ratsach]; he shall not be guilty of blood:

Elle,

Murder is sin. Murder for murder would be like saying if someone sins, someone else must sin also to "get even" with them. God never commanded sin. Why you and APL both argue for this makes no sense to me. If you want God to both command murder and command against it in the Ten Commandments, what exactly are you wanting? To be honest, that's quite a bit worse than simply believing that the KJV mistranslated the word as "kill" (my belief), or that ALL killing is "murder" (APL's belief). To believe, at one and the same time, that God commanded both for AND against murder would be unacceptably illogical for me.

But let's get more scholarly about this and see if we can clear it up a bit better.

Numbers 35:30 does not use the word "murder" (ratsach) to say "put to death" at this point in the text. Verse 30 uses H4191 "muwth" just like Numbers 35:12, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, and 31, to say what is translated as "die" or "put to death." Numbers 35:30 is the ONLY verse in the KJV where ratsach appears to have been translated as "put to death." I believe this is simply an incorrect rendering. The Hebrew says simply:

כָּל־מַכֵּה־נֶפֶשׁ לְפִי עֵדִים יִרְצַח אֶת־הָרֹצֵחַ וְעֵד אֶחָד לֹא־יַעֲנֶה בְנֶפֶשׁ לָמֽוּת׃

Remember that Hebrew reads from right to left, backwards from English. So here are the words given there:


וְעֵד/עֵדִים = witness (`ed) (H5707)
אֶחָד = one / only ('echad) (H259)
יַעֲנֶה = testify (`anah) (H6030)
נֶפֶשׁ = soul / person (nephesh) (H5315)
לְפִי = mouth (peh) (H6310)
מוּת = kill / put to death (muwth) (H4191)
מַכֵּה = kill (nakah) (H5221)
יִרְצַח = murder (ratsach) (H7523)
כָּל = all (H3605)
אֵת = [untranslated accusative-case grammatical particle; sign of the definite direct object] ('eth) (H853)
לְ / לָ = prefixed preposition: to, for, towards, belonging to, in regard/according to (H9009)
הַ / הָ / הֶ = definite article "the" (H9005)
בְּ / בַּ / בָּ / בֶּ = prefix or inseparable preposition; combined with the definite article - in, at, to, on, among, with, towards; according to, by, because of. (H9004)
וְ / וַ / וָ / וּ = conjunction - and, and therefore, also, then, yet. (H9007)
לֹא = no / not (H3808)

If we start, then, with the Strong's numbers for each word in that verse, we can plug in their definitions and get a transliterated version of the verse that is much nearer the original than our Bibles will show. First the numbers:

3605-5221-5315 9009+6310 5707 7523 0853-9005+7523 9007+5707 0259 3808-6030 9004+5315 9009+4191

Now, the transliteration:

All-kill-soul/person according-to+mouth witness murder the+murder also+witness one/only not-testify towards+soul/person to+(put to death/kill).

When I look at that, I see it basically saying the following:

«Anyone who kills a person, according to the mouth of witnesses of murder, is a murderer; also the witness of only one cannot testify towards the person to put him to death.»

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Here's a simple fact:

Numbers 35:30 has not two but THREE Hebrew words for killing. They are nakah, ratsach, and muwth. The word "muwth" is used to speak of putting the murderer (ratsach) to death for having killed (nakah) someone. Given that "muwth" speaks of putting the murderer to death, there is no need to say that the murderer is murdered before speaking of putting him to death. A murdered person cannot be subsequently put to death!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No. I don't know Baal of Peor at all. I know I don't live up to Christ as I should at all times, but, there isn't anyway of getting to know Baal of Peor. He doesn't exist.

Murder for murder may be in the same line of thought as "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot"Ex 21:24

I don't claim I understand this text, but if I do draw some speculative interpretation, I will not consider it even close to truth while clearly confessing -- "I don't know".

There's many things we do not understand Green and we need to be patient and let the Lord teach us and reveal His word to us. If we usurp His teaching position and draw our own conclusion; then we will become blind.

Also, we need to remember that "the law is spiritual". Meaning that the LETTER doesn't literally mean what the Lord's spiritual intend of it. What's helpful is to find a "court case" or an application of the law by which will reveal more of the Lord mind behind the law by the way He has applied it.


We don't even understand what ratsach means yet; then how can we say this is sin or this is not sin. I'm sure none of us plan to ratsach or hareg or muwth anyone right? So we are safe for the time being. Let's us try to understand the Lord's language and to have a deeper understanding of His law.

I'm not aware of APL belief or argument, but personally I'm interested to understand what the Lord is saying. And that starts from not changing what scripture says.

The scriptures says what it says. If it doesn't make sense to me, then 99.999% of the time its because there is something I do not understand about the Lord. We need to keep our minds open to what else He has declared elsewhere that relates to this that may shed some light.


Do you seek to re-write the Bible for Moses? Do you think Moses didn't understand the Lord? Because as far as what the Lord has declared to Aaron and Miriam about Moses in Numbers 12:8 He said Moses knew Him as He is.

"With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

Moses beheld the Lord. Moses understood the Lord's speech language ("dark speeches") and they spoke mouth to mouth. Thus, I am still far from even understanding the Lord's dark speech language and I haven't yet had one mouth to mouth conversation with Him; thus I do submit to Moses chosen words of expression for I acknowledge that I have much to learn yet.


We are not dealing with translation here.


Remember, the mind of man cannot comprehend spiritual things. (1Cor 2:14) It is our spirit that can understand spiritual things. Our spirit and mind often have opposing views. Just because it doesn't fit your mind's logic, you should not change the text. That's the wrong approach that only leads to heart idols and blindness. The correct approach is to acknowledge we do not understand and ask the Lord to explain the text to us. It might take some time. Even it could take years .... but while waiting, we ponder on His word and we study other texts that we haven't looked at that employs the word "ratsach". And who knows, the other texts may shed some little light to what the Lord had spoken to Moses in Num 35:30 and other related texts.


You shouldn't rely at what the KJV or other translations rendering. We need to look what Hebrew word is used. Up to now, with the amount of study we have done, we only have a partial understanding of the word. We need to do a full investigation of the word before we can come around and critize any translation. We need to try to extract the definition of a word from the context it is employed.

Youngs Literal Translation renders Num 35:30 as "one slay[ratsach] the murderer[ratsach]"YLT


You did a good job distorting the text to say what your logical mind can handle to understand. And you did this without finishing your investigation of the word!

Most if not all Hebrew scholar would disagree with your rendering. I say this with assurance by looking how many have rendered it in many translation. Not one scholar has rendered it as "witnesses of murder" or "is a murderer" like you have. If there would be one, maybe I would give your translation some credence, but there's not even one I could find.

The interlinear software that many scholar uses -- the rendering is the following: (btw suffix and prefix are not inserted)

Every-of(3605) one-smiting-of(5221) soul(5315) to.mouth-of(6310) witnesses(5707) he-shall-murder(7523) >>(0853)the-one-being-murderer(7523) and.witness(5707) one(0259) not(3808) he-shall-respond(6030) in-soul(5315) to.to-die-of(4191)

Do note that the ">>(853)" ath(aleph & tav) is the first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabeth. Basically it is the "alpha & Omega" translated in Hebrew. There's thousands of these in the Hebrew text and these are not translated. When these are mentioned, in front of a word; some say it is a SIGN put on the word to accentuate it. Notice the "ath" sign is put on the murderer.