There is no point in discussing salvation with you, Elle.
Your universalist doctrines lead to the Pit! They belittle the sacrifice of Christ (everyone is automatically saved, there is no choice, no free will) and annul all motivation for a sanctified life (everyone will live eternally, "Thou shalt NOT surely die!", so why not just sin if it feels good?)

Your arguments have been met and eloquently refuted by more knowledgeable members than I. Yet you still cling to your Jesuit inspired prosperity theology. If a simple thus saith the Lord cannot change your faulty views, then nothing I or anyone else can say will.

Since the discussion has reached the point where you are "skimming quickly everything", then perhaps it is time to depart.

God has promised that He will NOT clear the guilty. As we study the plan of salvation through the Sanctuary Service, we can see is keeping that promise.

The words in brackets were missing in your original post, however, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that not everybody will be saved, but that only some will be saved in comparison to the many who will be lost, which really is the intended purpose of this particular thread.

You're correct Daryl. I just noticed yesterday that I had missed clarifying that I was talking about God in that statement. I appreciate the reproof.

I want us to seriously consider what is written in the New Testament, which I believe wouldn't contradict anything written in the Old Testament in that, if there is anybody who understood what was written in the Old Testament, it was Christ Himself.

If the NT, therefore, says that people will perish in the Lake of Fire, then people will perish in the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(bold emphasis mine)

That is an important point. There are many professed Christians who believe the way of salvation was different in it's relation to the Law of God in the Old Testament than in the New Testament. This confusion has to do with which law?

God was just as gracious in the Old Testament as in the New. Its just that the ceremonial law wasn't practiced in the NT as in the OT. There was a change in the relation and practice with regard to the ceremonial law, but, not with the Moral Law or Ten Commandments.

I am not in any way implying that we are saved by keeping the Moral Law, but, it is important to our relationship with God.

Good statement Alchemy. I agree that He will not clear the guilty. Even those that are redeemed are not cleared. If you know what I mean; but I'm not surprise you don't for our understanding of the word "redeem" is very shallow and have not looked it up how it is defined in the law.

We and the Whole World have been redeemed since the foundation of the earth(Rev 13:8). The plan of salvation was already laid before creation. Thus LEGALLY (because the Lord decreed it with a plan), we all were already redeemed before we came to Christ.

Then, we learn from the sanctuary service that sin is only COVERED. It is only at the end of the Feasts time (Day of Atonement is the legal time sin is removed in heaven -- 8th days of Tabernacle is the manifestation time where sin is actually removed from our body when we are clothed with immortality) that sin is removed from the Sanctuary which represents our body temple.

And yes what Daryl put in bracket to bring an emphasis is extremely important -- only Jesus can remove the sin out of our body temple. But somehow we confuse that after we come to Jesus as most Christians take the same path as the Israelites has taken when they vowed to obey all the laws, statues, and commandments. This off-path is equal in replacing that section in bracket with "[that we] keep the promise"

And then, we forget that it is Jesus that removes sin and go down the same Jewish mindset that we are somehow more special and we are saved because He chose us and we chose Him; and loose sight that what He did with us He can and WILL DO to others also in HIS TIME according to His DECREE/PLAN set at the beginning of time.

The Harvest time right now, is NOT for the Church believers, and NOT for the Unbelievers. The time right now is to get the FIRST Harvest (Barley) ripened and harvested. Then it will be the turn of the rest of the believers, and then after the Grape harvest will follow just as illustrated in the Law.

Paul makes such reference to this in 1Cor 15:22,23

ALL (not some) Will be Made ALIVE

AV 1C 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

Notice the text it says "in Adam ALL die" -- the all here is NOT some -- it is all men that died because of Adam's sin.

Then Paul say in the same verse "EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive." --the all here is the same all as "in Adam ALL die" -- thus "in Christ shall ALL be made alive" -- NOT some but ALL -- the same ALL that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ.

But Every man will be made alive in his own Squadron

Let's now look at what Paul says with this context in the next verse :
23 "But every man in his own order[tagma, squadron]: Christ[christo, Anointed] the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Paul says every man "will be made alive" in v.22 -- Not all at the same time BUT in his own order of squadrons. The word tagma means squadron. Every man of the ALL of v.22 is divided into 3 squadrons. And according to the order of their squadron they will be made alive as depicted in the law with the 3 harvests.

Paul says the first squadron is "Christ[christos] the firstfruits[aparch]". This translation makes no sense for Jesus is not a squadron. He is one person. Without spending 3 paragraph to look closely at the Greek of "aparchE Christos" this can also be translated as the "anointed firstfruits". Christos is often translated as anointed because it means just that. Thus this translation would make more sense for two reason :
#1 the Barley squadron which are the Overcomers is also called the firstfruits in the NT.
#2 the Overcomers is a squadron for they will be more than one person.

To me the overcomers is the first group-squadron of men that Paul is referring to in the ALL of the 2nd part of v.22 to "be made alive"[=receive the immortal & incorruptible body].

The second squadron of the ALL is "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Which Christ's coming is Paul referring to? It is true that there are 2 comings, but it doesn't mean that when Jesus - the Judge (with His body -- the overcomers that are given thrones also to judge the world with Christ) comes to sit at the Great White throne after the Millennium is over, that event could also be considered as a coming. It is another great event in the history of the plan of salvation. Actually an epic of all events when finally the Judge that will bring "restitution of all things" in His Court Order that was preached from the beginning of time has finally come(Acts 3:21). That is another important "coming of Jesus" when He sits at the Great White throne with the overcomers(1st squadron) to judge the believers (the 2nd squadron) and the unbelievers (the 3rd squadron).

Christ will purify the 2nd squadron with fire and lashes(figuratively speaking according to what Jesus described in the Mat & Luke and according to what the law depicts in His plan of salvation). And when that fire and the lashes time are over, the 2nd squadron also "will be made alive" (v.22)

And then afterward Jesus will work on the 3rd squadron. Just like the 3 harvests works. -- all in its own order[tagma, squadron] and time.

The Law says there's a Jubilee and 3 Harvests :

The Jubilee is portrayed as 7x7years (49 years) + 1 year; but its fulfillment time is in Millennium not years by which the coming 7th millennium is a the first Sabbath Millennium. After the Sabbath Millennium is over, comes the Great White Throne Judgment Event. According to the Jubilee LAW, ALL debt(not some) are forgiven then and everyone returns back to their estate (glorified body which was Adam's first estate that he lost because of sin).

The 3 harvests are the following :

Barley at Jesus 2nd Coming : represents the Overcomers who are the Firstfruits of the Harvests.

Wheat after the Millenium : represents the remaining of Beleivers.

Grapes at the end of the Jubilee : represents the unbelievers.

Elle, you misunderstand Paul's word in 1 Cor. 15.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order:)

• Christ the firstfruits,
   
• afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
   
• 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.)

ALL indeed are made alive, to be sure. But consider that #3 when Christ puts an end to all rule, even death itself (that 'reigns' over us still) is destroyed. See Rev. 20:11-15. And it is also written, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels ...'" (Mat. 25:41)

Why do you obsess over the Law, seeking desperately for meaning, when Christ offers a full, complete and final interpretation?

///

Elle, would you be saying that Revelation talks of the second death, to really mean life? Though those will not be God's son?

Tx for bringing in further context of this quote. Before proceeding to your points made, I notice you didn't comment on the firstfruits despite you quoted v.20 that says Christ is the firstfruits. But let us not forget that Jesus was only the HEAD of the body and He is only ONE PERSON; thus He cannot be the "squadron" that 1Cor 15:23 is referring to. It is not only Jesus that is said to be the firstfruits in scriptures -- the overcomers are also referred as the firstfruit(Jm 1:18; Rev 4:14) because they constitute HIS body. The HEAD and the BODY are both Firstfruits and will form ONE "being"(or government) -- the Melchizedek Order.

In terms of which firstfruits(Jesus or the Overcomers) was Paul referring to in verse 23? I see it that it can only be the Overcomers, because :

#1. As I already mentioned, they are numerous in number -- thus they do make a "squadron". Whereas Jesus cannot be a "squadron" for He is only one person.

AV 1C 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. 23 "But every man in his own order[tagma, squadron]: Christ[christo, Anointed] the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

#2.This I haven't mentioned before -- the "Every man" in verse 23 is not referring to Jesus. It is referring to the ALL that died in Adam and the ALL that is made alive in Christ in verse 22. Paul was not referring to Christ as inside that ALL group. Christ is the ONE that reverse the curse that was put on Adam and ALL of his children.



Death is destroyed, but that doesn't mean that the people is LITERALLY destroyed also. You are making an assumption there.


Yes, but you need to understand what that "everlasting fire" which is the "lake of fire" really is according to the mind of Christ -- not according to Men's interpretation.


Because :
1. the Law is the foundation of all truth (Is 8:20; Deut 13)
2. the law is the expression of Jesus' character
3. Jesus and the Holy Spirit always speak according to the law. So if I want to understand something in the NT or something Jesus said; I need to first understand what He said in the Law and other parts of the OT about that subject.
4. Jesus or the Holy Spirit will not teach us anything contrary to the Law for Sin is define as the breakage of the law.


James, you cannot understand Jesus "full, complete and final interpretation" without a)knowing His symbolic language, b)knowing His mind; c) knowing His ways that are all expressed in the law.

Many takes Jesus' same words and come to various different interpretations. Jesus language that you allude to be an "interpretation" is not an "interpretation" at all. He spoke as much in "dark speeches"(symbolic language) as He did in the OT(read Num 12:1-8). The disciples even recognized that Jesus always spoke in Parables. He did explain the meaning of some of His parables to the disciples, but not all of them were interpretated. Thus most Christians does the mistake to take all of Jesus' words LITERALLY like I have seen you done many times.