That's a good thought. No I wouldn't equate the 2nd death as it means "life". Well at least not the "life" that is associated with the 1st resurrection and the 2nd. So it seems the word "life" needs to be further define. After some reflection, what I see from scripture; it seems there's two "stages" or "definition" of life (I lack here: better words needs to be used to express this better):

#1. The path of life : This is what Asygo brought forth which I though was a very good point to take note. We know that all seeds must die first to come to life. But that life starts as a little plant that takes time before they become mature in bearing fruits. Scripture seems to view this as "the path of life".

#2. When we are change : During our "path of life", death(mortality) still reside in us. We remain mortal until Jesus clothes(changes) us with immortality. This is what I am seeing what texts similar to the "dead raised to life"(Heb 11:35) means or text like Jn 5:29 of those "that have done good unto the resurrection of life". The "life" here means to be clothed with immortality and uncorruptness.

To make a distinction, their were many dead raised to life in scriptures like Lazarus, the sick little girl, and others ...; but they weren't changed to immortality when raised. But yet they were in essence "types" or symbolic representation of those dead who are raised to life that happens at the 1st resurrection and at the 2nd.


Life(#2) = Sonship & Inheritance

Notice Rev 21:7 talks about "Sonship" and "inherit all things". "Sonship" comes only to those that have grown into full maturity and are bearing the acceptable good fruits that are pleasing to the Lord.

The believers that have accepted Jesus, their "seed" have died; but many are only at the young plants stage still and are not able to bear any fruits. This analogy has limitation for I think this "seed" has to died many times as we know from Paul's revelation and from our own experiences, that this initial "seed" death is not the only "death" that we are to die. The initial "seed" death does not automatically makes us mature. This 2nd death(the spiritual death) needs to be died daily ....until we come to this "ultimate full death" that we are willing to put our entire life aside to become that "living sacrifice" like Jesus was at the cross. Jesus' death on the cross was for others. He traced what road we are to take and what "death end" we are to reach. I'm not talking about a literal death on a literal cross, but the same death in laying our whole life for the sake of others.

From studying the peace and burnt offering, this is the ultimately sacrifice where the Lord is bringing us all to. And that doesn't come right away at our conversion. It takes a lot of dying of self (thru the harsh discipline of the Lord) before we matured to the point that we are willing to put our whole life aside to become a "living sacrifice" for others like Jesus. That's only when we have reached that maturity and have become that acceptable fruit that the Father requires.

That "life" (#2 which equates to Sonship & inheritance) is only fulfilled when mortality(death) and corruptness is removed from our body when we are changed(actually clothed with life as depicted in the Feast of Tabernacle by living in a booth made of living branches). Before that event comes, our body are still clothed with mortality(death).

At Jesus 2nd coming, only the Overcomers, the first squadron(1 Cor 15:23), will have reached that maturity stage first. Let me emphasize they did not reached it because of their willingness throughout their growth stage. They have reached it because the Lord has disciplined them and brought them to that place. 100% of the credit goes to Jesus because of His promise He made of writing His laws in our hearts and minds. We cannot do .00009% of that work. What the Lord has done with the Overcomers(the firstfruits) He can and will also do to other. The definition of firstfruits according to the Law is that -- it is a promise of the remaining harvest by blessing the remaining harvests.

Actually I was talking about "death".


Do you have reason to believe it means not "sons" at first, but later? To me, the direct and clear meaning of the verse is never to be sons.

Group 1: reward for overcomers, sons
But
Group 2: burn, 2nd death.

I don't know how one can see that the 2nd Death means life.

Doesn't make any sense to me.

This sounds like a false second chance doctrine to me.

It just seems to me that those who insist that God never kills anyone are going to have a lot of trouble with the second death and the flood, as well as other instances.

God is Life! Yet, because of the entrance of sin, there is now death available. And yes, death is the absence of God who is life. God is never a hateful tyrant even when He is executing judgment. Amen! So, let us turn away from sin so we can have life in God. (Deut. 30:17-20)

Nope - no trouble at all. Jesus demonstrated the second death, and how was God involved? God does not kill, sin kills. Also: It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}

And

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

APL wrote;

"Nope - no trouble at all. Jesus demonstrated the second death, and how was God involved? God does not kill, sin kills."

Yes. Very much!

There aren't any Romans around to kill anyone in the second death. God rains down fire and brimstone to destroy the wicked. 1 Corinthians 15:26 tells us the last enemy destroyed is death itself. Satan can't even destroy that.

You see, neither the Romans nor Satan put Christ in the second death. They helped to put Christ in the first death, but, not the second death. Only God can do that. So, I don't find your point valid APL.

Now, I do agree that all this death is because of sin! Absolutely! That is how Satan and his angels are destroying themselves! But, God isn't going to wait for that to happen. He will do it Himself.

looks like there's confusion about what constitute the second death.

We know Jesus defined the two births.
....... the first birth is physical, the second is spiritual.

It's the same with the two deaths.
.........the first is physical, the second is spiritual.

The spiritual death is the death we die at our baptism,
............................is the death Paul said he dies daily.
............................is the death Jesus died at Getsamy when he gave his will up and submitted to the Father's will instead.
............................is the death we also die every time we give up our own will, and follow the Father's will.
............................is the death (submitting to the Father's will) Jesus died at his baptism
............................is the same death (submitting to the Father's will) we die at our own baptism.

kland ask if this second death equal life? i said not really not right away. it does lead to life thought .... we need to die this second death untill the LORD brings us to the ultimate DEATH END....when we are willing to become a TOTAL LIVING SACRIFICE by putting our entire life to the side for others. This is the ultimate second death that leads to the cross(figuratively speaking). When we reach this-- giving up our life to become a living sacrifice for others-- is when we have become mature and reached 'Sonship' become a true SON shares the Father's burden to work for others to bring them also into the Father's ultimate rest. The ultimate Sabbath rest is when we cease of all our own works(in all words or in all deeds) at all time and like Jesus only speaks what the Father told Him to say and only does what he saw the father doing. There's no rest or life without reaching that level.

(bold emphasis mine)

Blessings Elle,

I am not aware of anything in Scripture that teaches the second death is like some kind of purgatory. As if we must go through the second death until we finally die to self and are admitted into Heaven! I believe you have somehow merged the second death in Scripture with the Roman Catholic idea of purgatory.

As far as the second death is concerned, I believe there are two kinds.

One is the death to self we must experience while we are alive for Christ in the here and now. We die with Christ here on this earth. It is interesting how we experience this second death before the first death. Unless you are translated that is.

Secondly; the literal death of the lost after the thousand years. Both, their first and second deaths are physical and literal.

There is a literal aspect in the destruction of the death even. Death will never exist again after the second death.

I hope I was clear.

You should read the article by Ellen White in Signs of the Times, April 14, 1898 titled, "Christ and the Law." You will find a different picture of the fire from God than what you are depicting. The article also defines God's wrath. I'll let the article speak for itself. You can read it HERE

Christ suffered the death of a sinner, and how was God involved? Did God kill Christ? God does not kill sinners, sin kills sinners.