I agree, the penalty of the law is intrinsic: the sentence of death is carried out when sin comes into contact with the glorious purity of God. This is an unalterable law as certain and inexorable as the law of gravity. If I jump off of a cliff and die, is it the law of gravity that killed me or my own free choice?

An executioner is not necessary, by choosing to follow Satan, the unsaved sinner becomes his own executioner.


"Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire." – {GC 37.1}

As I see it, you are really splitting hairs with that interpretation.

What if an executioner killed an innocent person, would the executioner be guilty of murder? Yes. This is what Sister White is talking about. God is innocent of any and all crimes of injustice, so, He is not like an executioner in that regard. But, God does kill the guilty! And GC 36.1 says that.

It is true that the penalty of sin is death. And intrinsic to this fact is that those who live in and by sin are separated from the source of life, and that is Jesus.

But, never does the Bible or Ellen White state that the wicked are left somewhere to eventually die off or kill each other off. This is not the case. God ends all this in His time, and to do this God executes His will by destroying all sin, sinners and death from existence.

Splitting hairs - you claim that God kills the guilty and that is not an executioner? THAT is a strange interpretation. No. The consequences of sin are intrinsic to sin. Satan has masked the nature of sin {see GC 569.1} to have sinners look at God as the executioner. Alchemy - understand the truth about God! It is very illuminating and it is the last message of mercy to be given to the world. Do not reject it. {see COL 415} But will even look at the references I have given? Sadly, not likely...

I look at the references you have given. But, I have very clear references that say God will destroy the wicked! Do you look at those? I hope so.

This is so important to God that His character and integrity be clear in all the minds of His believers. God is nor arbitrary in any way. God will make it clear to all those living throughout eternity, God never murders anyone, and the only way God would kill will all be accomplished with the Lake of Fire. A Lake of Fire created by God to destroy the wicked!

There isn't any way around that.

Death is intrinsic to sin. Yet, how is that death brought about? Not by some long drawn out watching and waiting for billions of beings to die off or destroy themselves. God will end it all in His time.

Splitting hairs? Would you be saying, that when the Bible says something like, "But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.", it means by saying He killed him, past tense, it really means that God will torture him at some point in the future, but God didn't really kill him at the present time and "turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"?

I can't believe you are really saying that, so what are you really saying? The Bible says God killed Saul and turned the kingdom over to David. Does it mean at that time or to be done at some future time? [/quote]

Blessings kland,

I understand that the Bible describes this event in more than one place and in more than one way, or so it seems. But, I will need to get back with you in the near future.

There are some, even on this forum, who did not know of the rest of the story of the event. So in your answer, address it with the idea of those who do not currently know other locations in the Bible that describe an event more fully.

I will do this event in Matthew 12:22-30;

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Jesus teaches us here that Satan is not about to destroy himself. That Satan is trying to perpetuate his kingdom, not lose it. So, in verse 29 Jesus describes Himself as the stronger man who is going to bind the strong man, who is Satan and spoil his goods! This is the real point! God will destroy Satan and his kingdom in God's own time.

So, there isn't any contradiction in the death of Saul, first king of Israel. The Bible is quite clear as to how Saul died.

I'm sorry, how did you conclude that? And did you address my point about not being aware of where the Bible says something else?

Quite easily kland. The Bible is abundantly clear how God will vindicate Himself before He destroys the wicked! This destruction of the wicked isn't any arbitrary act on the part of God, as it is with an executioner. One who doesn't care who is innocent or guilty.

Looking back at your response about Saul, I can't make heads or tails about the point you are making? God did kill Saul and give the kingdom to David just like the Bible said.