Alchemy, what APL and Kland are trying to say is that when the Bible says "God destroyed, or God killed" they believe it doesn't really mean what it says.

The reason the case of Saul's death is being brought up, is because Saul actually killed himself by "falling on his sword" (see first Samuel 31:4).
God killed Saul by withdrawing His protection and allowing the enemy victory in the battle being fought, He didn't actively kill Saul by striking him dead.

This case study is then one of several that are used by people like APL and kland, who believe that God would never actively take the life of anyone. They develop a doctrine that God only removes His protection, and sin does the rest.

They fail to acknowledge that while, yes, sin is what destroys, and it's clinging to sin that causes everyone who is lost to be lost, yet God will step in and actively stop sin, so righteousness can prevail.

A good example is the Red Sea crossing.
-- God opened the Red Sea to deliver His people--
But then not only did God close the Red Sea to drown their enemy who presumptuously entered the dry path through the sea in pursuit of God's people, God also sent His angels to remove the wheels of the chariots so the Egyptians couldn't get out before the water crashed in on them.

While God allows, to a great extent for sin to do its baleful work and reveal it's malignant, cruel nature, there are times when God will deliver His people by destroying those who oppress righteousness. And someday God will erase all sin from the face of the earth, once the whole issue of sin and God's righteous justice is fully disclosed, and declared with one voice to be totally righteous. The restoration can only take place when all evil, and all desire for evil is totally obliterated.

Yet, there are those on this forum, who will take one side of the equation, (clinging to sin destroys all chances of restoration and results in eternal destruction) but refuse to see the other side (God's wrath is against sin and He will destroy all sin including those who cling to sin). The balance is lost, when only one side is believed, and when the balance is lost these debates go on through thousands of posts (which have burdened this forum) but they never reach the correct solution given us in scripture and in EGW writings.

One side goes heavy on "God never takes the life of any person"
The other side goes heavy on "God does kill".

And Satan sits back and laughs because either way God's righteous character of love, mercy and justice is maligned.

For the most part --
I chose to stay clear of these discussions, if agitated it becomes the chief and only focus of certain contributors, who will turn every thread into this discussion.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.{DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.{DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law.{DA 764.3}

The death of the wicked, Satan included:
1) it is not a act of arbitrary power by God
2) it is cause and effect - sinners reap what which they have sown
3) God is the fountain of life, separate from God and you die. God never leaves us, we leave Him.
4) left to the natural consequence, Satan and sinners would die
5) the universe did not understand this in the beginning of the rebellion. They did not know this was the INEVITABLE result of sin.
6) without this knowledge, doubt about God's truthfulness and trustworthiness would have remained
7) we have no excuse now, was have the evidence in the death of the Son of God what the cause of death is, SIN.
8) in the end, God's character will be known by all, and we are privileged to know it now.
9) the nature of sin has been revealed. Sin is the cause of death and destruction

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1}

Sin is disloyalty to God, and is deserving of punishment...
The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the non-execution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the Avenger of justice, which is the habitation and the foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law; He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. --Manuscript 145, Dec. 30, 1897, {UL 378.6}

God has a right to enforce the penalty of the law upon transgressors, for law without a penalty would be without force. God's law is the foundation of all law and government. The fact that Christ suffered the penalty of the law for all transgressors, is an unanswerable argument as to its immutable character, and it will justly condemn those who have sought to make it void. {ST, July 14, 1890 par.2

The blood of Jesus Christ alone cleanseth from all sin, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. {1SM 106.4}
through the blood of Christ alone is forgiveness of sins;--Letter 12, 1892. {7ABC 474.6}

Mercy and truth are promised to the humble and penitent, but judgments are prepared for the sinful and rebellious. "Justice and judgment are the habitation of Thy throne." A wicked and adulterous people will not escape the wrath of God, and the punishment they have justly earned.2T 448

. When the curse fell upon the beloved Son of God, who became sin for us, the Father made it manifest that the unrepenting transgressor of his law would have to suffer its full penalty. The word of God declares, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." The law of God was upheld and vindicated by the Son of God. The death of Christ, as an expiatory sacrifice, opens a way whereby the sinner may be pardoned, and turn from the path of transgression into the path of truth and righteousness, while at the same time it vindicates the honor and unchangeableness of the law. In the plan of salvation, justice and mercy clasp hands together. {ST, July 14, 1890 par.2

" The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son {FW 101.1}

Isn't there a few discussion for you guys to talk about whether or not the Lord kills? You guys will never come to agree because I think scriptures teaches differently which makes that both side of that discussion can find support for their positions; however both sides needs to ignore some scriptures to maintain their position. Thus making both sides of that discussion WRONG. That's why it is an endless type of discussion that will never be resolve.

The only reason kland brought it up is to disagree with Daryl comment that scripture is so clear that even a child can understand.[my paraphyase as I didn't quote Daryl's exact words]. I agree with kland's point, NO it's not that simple and that's why we often find ourselves divided regardless a doctrinal topic.

Ok Kland proved his point -- IT's not so simple or easy and we have the trinity vs Godhead; Woman ordination; does God kills; and etc... topics to prove it -- now let's move on to this topic.

This discussion is about whether the Bible teach that EVERYONE is saved (by which I believe) or that SOME are Saved(by which all of you believe).