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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180963
07/07/16 07:43 PM
07/07/16 07:43 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Alchemy, what APL and Kland are trying to say is that when the Bible says "God destroyed, or God killed" they believe it doesn't really mean what it says.
Would you say there others who try to say that when The Bible and Ellen White says, "God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}", it doesn't mean what it says?

Quote:
While God allows, to a great extent for sin to do its baleful work and reveal it's malignant, cruel nature, there are times when God will deliver His people by destroying those who oppress righteousness.
Do you mean to say, that sometimes God allows cruel nature, while there are other times God will be cruel Himself?

Like someone about to commit suicide and the officer shoots him right beforehand preventing a crime. Just in the nick of time...

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180970
07/09/16 09:20 PM
07/09/16 09:20 PM
dedication  Online Content
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"Sin is disloyalty to God, and is deserving of punishment...The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the non-execution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the Avenger of justice, which is the habitation and the foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law; He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. --Manuscript 145, Dec. 30, 1897, {UL 378.6}

The people of Israel, because of their sinfulness, were forbidden to approach the mount when God was about to descend upon it to proclaim His law, lest they should be consumed by the burning glory of His presence. If such manifestations of His power marked the place chosen for the proclamation of God's law, how terrible must be His tribunal when He comes for the execution of these sacred statutes. How will those who have trampled upon His authority endure His glory in the great day of final retribution? . . . {Mar 40.2}
When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire. . . . But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. . . . {Mar 40.3}
Never since man was created had there been witnessed such a manifestation of divine power as when the law was proclaimed from Sinai. . . . Amid the most terrific convulsions of nature the voice of God, like a trumpet, was heard from the cloud. The mountain was shaken from base to summit, and the hosts of Israel, pale and trembling with terror, lay upon their faces upon the earth. He whose voice then shook the earth has declared, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." . . . {Mar 40.4}
When Moses came from the divine Presence in the mount, where he had received the tables of the testimony, guilty Israel could not endure the light that glorified his countenance. How much less can transgressors look upon the Son of God when He shall appear in the glory of His Father, surrounded by all the heavenly host, to execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law and the rejecters of His atonement. . . . {Mar 40.5}
But amid the tempest of divine judgment the children of God will have no cause for fear. "The Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel." The day that brings terror and destruction to the transgressors of God's law, will bring to the obedient, "joy unspeakable, and full of glory." {Mar 40.6}

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180971
07/09/16 10:46 PM
07/09/16 10:46 PM
APL  Offline
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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180973
07/10/16 01:15 AM
07/10/16 01:15 AM
dedication  Online Content
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"The power that inflicted retributive justice upon man's substitute and surety, was the power that sustained and upheld the suffering One under the tremendous weight of wrath that would have fallen upon a sinful world. Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law. {5BC 1103.2}

"It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when He bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God's law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {5BC 1103.3}

"Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering; for the human existed in the divine nature, and created a capacity for suffering to endure that which resulted from the sins of a lost world. The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner (MS 35, 1895). {5BC 1103.4}

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180976
07/10/16 05:32 AM
07/10/16 05:32 AM
APL  Offline
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What is God's wrath? Did God execute Christ? Did God inflict torture on Christ? NO. God's wrath is when He gives up, lets go of the sinner and sin runs its course. See Romans 1 and MANY other places.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #180977
07/10/16 06:00 AM
07/10/16 06:00 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
Alchemy, what APL and Kland are trying to say is that when the Bible says "God destroyed, or God killed" they believe it doesn't really mean what it says.
Would you say there others who try to say that when The Bible and Ellen White says, "God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}", it doesn't mean what it says?

Quote:
While God allows, to a great extent for sin to do its baleful work and reveal it's malignant, cruel nature, there are times when God will deliver His people by destroying those who oppress righteousness.
Do you mean to say, that sometimes God allows cruel nature, while there are other times God will be cruel Himself?

Like someone about to commit suicide and the officer shoots him right beforehand preventing a crime. Just in the nick of time...
(bold emphasis mine)

No one is saying God is cruel when H executes vengeance. To the contrary, God is allowing everything to transpire on this earth for thousands of years to expose the evil and base intentions of Satan and to vindicate His righteous character before His creation. Before all His creation. Even the lost. God doesn't owe anyone all this pain and suffering that He, yes God, is going through to clarify this issue of right and wrong, just and unjust before all His creation.

But then, and only then, will God completely destroy the wicked. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord". (Romans 12:19; Isaiah 63:4)

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Alchemy] #180984
07/11/16 01:00 PM
07/11/16 01:00 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
Alchemy, what APL and Kland are trying to say is that when the Bible says "God destroyed, or God killed" they believe it doesn't really mean what it says.
Would you say there others who try to say that when The Bible and Ellen White says, "God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}", it doesn't mean what it says?

Quote:
While God allows, to a great extent for sin to do its baleful work and reveal it's malignant, cruel nature, there are times when God will deliver His people by destroying those who oppress righteousness.
Do you mean to say, that sometimes God allows cruel nature, while there are other times God will be cruel Himself?

Like someone about to commit suicide and the officer shoots him right beforehand preventing a crime. Just in the nick of time...
(bold emphasis mine)

No one is saying God is cruel when H executes vengeance.
Setting people on fire is not cruel? What determines if something is cruel?

[don't understand the point of the rest of what you said. Is someone disagreeing with it?]

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #180991
07/12/16 01:15 AM
07/12/16 01:15 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
kland wrote;

"Setting people on fire is not cruel? What determines if something is cruel?"

Why is it performed! The destruction of the wicked is both justified and beneficial for all involved. God knows He must eradicate sin and its followers to restore His kingdom to its proper state of existence.

So no, God is not in any way cruel when He destroys the wicked.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Alchemy] #180994
07/12/16 02:57 AM
07/12/16 02:57 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
kland wrote;

"Setting people on fire is not cruel? What determines if something is cruel?"

Why is it performed! The destruction of the wicked is both justified and beneficial for all involved. God knows He must eradicate sin and its followers to restore His kingdom to its proper state of existence.

So no, God is not in any way cruel when He destroys the wicked.


God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}

... the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death.
{PP 68.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Alchemy] #180996
07/12/16 07:40 PM
07/12/16 07:40 PM
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kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
kland wrote;

"Setting people on fire is not cruel? What determines if something is cruel?"

Why is it performed! The destruction of the wicked is both justified and beneficial for all involved. God knows He must eradicate sin and its followers to restore His kingdom to its proper state of existence.

So no, God is not in any way cruel when He destroys the wicked.
So are you saying cruelty is determined by whether you have a good reason for doing it? (And this even if the wicked would have died anyway, but God steps in at the last moment to inflict your so-called "non-cruelty". For a good reason, though. Really?) Sounds like a Green definition of: Just because God destroys does not make Him a destroyer.

By the way, Hitler says he had a good reason for setting people on fire. It was for the benefit of the evolutionary advancement of the human race. Some must be extinguished for the benefit of the majority. It is better that some lose their lives than the whole world perish.

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