Well, God is not Hitler.

And, He doesn't step in at the last minute, as if right before they die! And, of course the reason why makes all the difference. What else would make the any difference?

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying the definition of "cruelty" is determined by whether the one doing it has a good reason?

Well, God is never cruel!

So you're saying, God can't be judged?

See what happens in these discussions.
The infinite, all wise, perfectly holy, righteous One, existing in glorious holy light that no mortal can approach and live, is talked about as some common criminal.

God, who is all wise, and all knowing, and totally righteous, has the perfect right to judge and to execute judgment.


Satan wants us to think God is "cruel" if He punishes him (satan).
He encourages sin by telling people God would be cruel if He punishes sinners who mock and trample on God's grace and reject His unfathomable love in trying to save them.

Satan is working with utter zeal and cruelity to ruin everything God made, but God better not do anything about it or Satan points his ugly finger at God and cries "unfair" you are "cruel".
That's Satan's big lie, trying to make it sound like God's perfectly just and righteous punishment, is "cruel".

This conversation is utterly insane in my opinion.
It's attacking God's right to govern, His sovereignty, His justice, His right to uphold His law and expect obedience and hold His creatures accountable.

It mocks the awesome fact that God has poured out all heaven to save sinners, by saying God is cruel when He puts a final end to sin, and restores holiness to the universe.
It infers that God does not hold anyone accountable for their choices just leaves them to natural consequences.
That's probably what satan is hoping for -- that he can hang around and harass the holy city come down from heaven for a long time, God must not pour fire down from heaven to cleanse the earth or He will claim God is cruel.

What we have is a Great Controvery dedication. God IS on trial. God wants us to know the truth about His character. Yes, all heaven was poured out to save us. What will God do to us if we reject that incredible gift? Will He then burn you to death?

The question is, does sin cause death or does God? You say sin can't be as bad as it really is and God MUST step in and kill the sinner. But the truth is that the inevitable consequences of sin is death, not execution by God. God is not an executioner. But the devil wants to to view God as THE executioner, THE destroyer.

Christ came to save fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be. Said Christ, "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 7}

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! ... In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}

I've been away for a while. Looking at the last page, the thread seems to have been derailed. Can someone summarize the points on both sides of the thread's actual topic? Thanks.

8 pages of derailment! It started at page 16 up to here [page 23]. That's a lot of cleanup to do! Are these pages going to be moved to an appropriate discussion?

Daryl had signal it at the beginning of its derailment. I have seen this same off-topic subject derailing another topic. In case those that are interested in that off-topic -- there's already a few discussions opened for it.

A summary! For sure.

I hope you guys don't mind me doing my version of a summary. I tried to bring forth all the main Biblical text discussed. In one main text, I didn't quote every sub-text that was quoted in the discussion that main text created. While doing this summary, I did see that I didn't answer James 3 texts. I think there was already too much things on the table before starting something else. If you find other that I didn't address, bring it forth. I still have to bring forth Section D (the lake of Fire) of Asygo request.

BTW, if you guys noticed that I didn't start bringing forth my own texts that I have. Up to now, I have been responding to everyone's texts. After everyone will be done, then I'll bring my texts over for you guys to evaluate.

Here's my summary of what was brought forth :

Page 1a : Whosever Believeth Daryl brought John 3:16

Elle : So this text doesn't say neither if everybody or some are saved. We need to go further in the Bible and see if it answer the following questions :

#1. How does an unbeliever come to believe?
#2. Does the Bible say everyone will end up believing?

Page 1b : All Should come to Repentance Then Daryl brought 2 Pe 3:9


Elle : That leads to two questions -- What does the Bible say about:

1. how does a man comes to repentance?
2. Does salvation rest on whether or not a man repent?

Daryl :This also tells me that unless everybody repents, there will be people who will be lost, as in not saved, which further tells me that everybody will not be saved.


Elle : How does Righteousness by Faith fit with this deduction?

Page 2 to 7 : The Narrow Gate-- Asygo brought Mat 7:13-14



Elle : In summary, this text needs to be understood with the way Jesus meant it by looking up other texts to find His definition of "destruction", "life", "narrow gate", "the broad road" and His plan of salvation written in the law.

I view this as an application of what Jesus was talking about. Both the Israelites and the Jews were "destroyed" and found themselves "cast out" of the camp. Despite being "cast out" and not going in the "narrow gate" and their nation and establishment LITTERALLY DESTROYED TWICE; many of them were able to RE-ENTER the Kingdom AGAIN.

Then there's prophecies prophesizing the regathering of Literal Israel while bringing in the Gentiles and Judah being unified to them??? Don't we believe in the word of God?

Much more was said that can be read from page 2-7.

Page 4 : After Man ONCE dies comes the Judgment -- Daryl brought Hebrews 9:27


Elle: This text doesn't say what Daryl said. There's NO TEXT that I ever seen that says or implies "that our choice for salvation is only granted in this life". If it's not in the Bible then it is most likely a teachings of MEN.

Heb 9:27 is used by universalist or those that believe in ETERNAL HELL FIRE to prove their point. That text says that Man is appointed to only die ONCE. Not Twice like we SDAs believe.


Page 5 : Everyone Will Repent -- Dedication disputed me quoting a version of Is 45:23 :


Elle :Meaning of the Two gestures

1.bowing the knee -- is a submission. All throughout the Bible this is the meaning of bowing before other Gods. This is why Daniel's friends did not bow down to the statue, because it means submission to the god the statue represents.

2. the tongue that swear -- is saying an oath. What type of oath or swearing are they saying?

These are the possibilities that comes to mind. If there's others, please let me know :

a) to swear whatever you are saying is the truth : it could be in a court of law, or to an individual, or to a group of people. This is not the case in this context.

b) to swear that you keep your end of the bargan-contract, your words, or keep this charge. This is also not the case in this context.

c) to swear an allegiance to an authority, to your leader, to a god, to a country, etc... This does fit this context because #1 they have bowed their knee before hand which means they had submitted to someone.


Page 8-10 : From Pre 2nd coming to the Great Jubilee Stemming from our exchange from Mat 7:13-14, Asygo ask for a description of my view from Jesus 2nd coming to after the lake of fire.


Page 14a : Not Clear the Guilty -- Alchemy raise the point that God has promised that He will NOT clear the guilty.

Elle : I agree with Alchemy's statement and that's why in the tresspasses offering and elsewhere in the law and in the NT it talks about the RESTITUTION of all things(Act 3:21). That's the purpose of the Great White throne Judgment where the Lord will judge all works and prescribe a restitution according to what is prescribed in the law for that offence[sin].

Sin is a DEBT to be paid. Yes Christ is our redeemer but we need to understand the law of redemption according to what it says in the Jubilee law where we find the most explicit definition of a debt being paid by our redeemer and having to work for Him instead of the slave master. The debt is only TRANSFERED (not erased) to the redeemer. The debt is only cancelled at the end of the Jubilee or if we have paid it before that time comes...whichever comes first. (read Lev 25).

So while those judged pay their restitution prescribed at the Great White throne judgment (aka execution of the pronounced judgment = the lake of fire); that's when they "will learn righteousness" Is 26:9.

Post #180409 respond to it some more where I quote : 1Cor 15:22,23

Page 14b : ALL (not some) will be made ALIVE

Elle : This text is the first of my texts; that explicitly says that ALL will be saved :

AV 1C 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

Notice the text it says "in Adam ALL die" -- the all here is NOT some -- it is all men that died because of Adam's sin.

Then Paul say in the same verse "EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive." --the all here is the same all as "in Adam ALL die" -- thus "in Christ shall ALL be made alive" -- NOT some but ALL -- the same ALL that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ.

I'm not so sure it is a complete "derailment".

It simply put a third option to the equation as the discussion basically hinges on --

What is the second death

Elle says the "second death" is not like the first death in that it is not really death as in ceasing to exist, perished or destroyed, but that the second death is simply dying to self, and finally being saved. (Something like that)

APL on the other hand says the "second death" is actual death as in ceasing to exist, but that it is a simply a natural result of sin, that God has nothing to do with it, as God would never remove life from anyone.

General Adventist belief:
After the white throne judgment, when everyone is convinced God in great love and mercy made every provision for mankind to be saved, and the lost realize it is by they own choice that they are lost, fire comes down from heaven and destroys all traces of sin, including those who refused to give up sin.

Rev. 2:10
be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
2:11 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.