Yes, He was slain by sin for sin and is the propitiation for our sins. He was condemned for our sins. He is the SIN-BEARER. The death we deserved, He suffered. He saves us from OUR SINS. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Dedication and Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. What killed Christ? Keep before the people the cross of Calvary. Show what caused the death of Christ--the transgression of the law. {6T 54.1} What is transgression? SIN. Sin caused the death of Christ. Christ came to die this death to procure the divine remedy for transgress. Christ's death is not a skillful way to pardon sin. Our transgression does not need to be punish for what it needs is to be is cured. In your eyes, your substitute in place of your punishment. But Christ is our substitute onto life! Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gave Himself for me to do what? Just be punished? That is a violation of Ezekiel 18. Christ gave His life to procure the divine remedy for transgression. His death was not a legal transaction, it was a healing, restorative transaction. What happens when Christ applies the divine remedy that He has procured? That remedy He established at an infinite cost!!! Your LEGAL attitude to sin is just assounding. Why is Satan not fit to return to heaven? Is it because Christ was not punished enough for his sins? Or is it rather that His sin is INCURABLE? Sin causes death. Sin destroys. It is sin that causes the death of the wicked! God is not a killer, He is the RESTORER. Again, you think that should God remit the punishment, that He would not be a God of justice. (I'm quoting DA - you you that by now, right?) Have you read Desire of Ages chapter 79 lately? Why are you so resistant to reading it? As I said, your legal religion is cold and loveless. Sin is not a legal problem, it is a real problem that needs a divine remedy. YES!!! Christ bore the penalty of transgression. Our sin, which He took on Himself, bore in His own made, was made to be sin, killed Him. Yes, redemption is restoration. It is not a skillful legal maneuver, but a divine remedy. Salvation means HEALING. We must be saved FROM Sin, not IN our sins. Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity.

And what is sin?-It is the transgression of the law. The gospel calls men from their transgression back to obedience to the law of God. Jesus, in His life and death, taught the strictest obedience. He died, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty, that the honor of God's law might be preserved, and yet man not utterly perish. It is through faith in Christ that they are justified. 1 John 3:4-6 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

When the divine remedy that would have saved and exalted human nature is despised, the same spirit still lives in the hearts of men, and we cannot trust to their guidance and maintain our loyalty to Christ. {Ms53-1894}

I guess if you think Christ taking our punishment that we may be pardoned is cold and loveless -- there is nothing more to say to you.

You have rejected the very remedy for sin that you think you are defending.

Yes, sin is transgression of the law.
You have transgressed that law, but you still reject the fact that Christ died taking the penalty you deserve, so you can have forgiveness, yes, He died the death you deserve and which the law demands that you die, so that you can have forgiveness.

Your sins can never be remitted by setting aside or waiving the punishment the law demanded, the law is changeless -- that punishment Christ took in your place.

But you state:

A half truth, is a whole falsehood.
Christ's death is heaven's means of meeting the demands of a transgressed law, and be able in justice and truth to pardon the sinner. Yes, it is a most amazing and love filled way that heaven devised so sinners can be forgiven.

Yes, healing is part of the plan as well, a forgiven sinner, who abides in Christ will find newness of life in Christ, no longer serving sin, but living for Christ.


If you reject the awesome way God found to uphold the demands of the law and still forgive sinners, then Christ died in vain for your sins, and you must take your own punishment in the end.
For, you have transgressed God's law -- you have sinned and the law demands your death -- no matter how many sinful habits you conquer.


Having made provision for the forgiveness of your sins,
then Christ offers you the righteousness He lived.
A righteousness that you can never earn. If you appear before God's judgment seat in your own righteousness you will not live. It is only in the righteousness of Christ that we are accounted justified.

No it's not a cloak under which we continue to sin. Forgiven, we live for Christ -- yet our lives will never merit us anything. It is only the merits of Christ's life that count, our efforts must be through the merits of Christ, or they are filthy still.


By rejecting Christ our substitute you are the one despising the divine remedy that can save and totally change your nature to reflect Christ ever more and more, and by this rejection are depending only on your good works. How can you mock Christ's death as some false skillful way to have forgiveness? It is the only way you CAN have forgiveness for your transgression.

Don't reject Christ as the one who died your substitute, taking your punishment which the law demanded because of your transgressions, so you can be forgiven.

Yes, Christ is also our substitute for life -- His righteous life credited to us. His ministry purifying and refining our characters.
Do you think that's cold and loveless as well???

Without being "born again" by the spirit, which has nothing to do with our "works" but everything to do with recognizing our helplessness and turning to Christ and accepting Him, accepting His forgiveness, accepting His merits, -- without being born again the promises in 1 John, that one who is born again ceases from sinning, won't happen, because you are always working to gain God's favor, not realizing Christ has already accepted you and wants you to believe that -- and thus releasing you from the condemnation of the law, to serve Him out of love and gratitude with a heart fully given to Him.
This brings forth the fruits of righteousness -- the righteousness by faith that overcomes the world.

Yes, Christ was manifested to take away sin --
and every step works together for His glory bringing us to righteousness.

you use the words but then give them a totally different meaning, denying the very thing they mean, in a "double speak" that is totally confusing.

You believe that God (the Law Giver) demanded that every sin be punished, and the found that He could do that to Christ and thus have a legal escape. Sorry, I don't believe that about God. Yes, Christ took the punishment for sin in order to find the remedy. He offers all the remedy. Without the remedy, the legal pardon is meaningless. The atonement of Christ is not a mere skilful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters. {Lt406-1906} Christ suffered the death that would have been ours, and will be that of the unrepentant sinner. And what death was that? The second death. Our sins, killed Him, not His own sins. But sin to you is a legal matter. But that idea of sin has no explanitory power on how sin has caused all sickness, disease, aging and death, in all life forms on this planet, man, animals and plant. Are animals and plants also in legal trouble? What does the law demand?

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. [he procured the remedy] These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

The plan of redemption is the restoration of life back into harmony of God's Law through the grace of Christ. (defintion of grace Isaiah 53:11 and Titus 3:5-7). So by God to restore a sinner back into compliance of the law, that is insufficient for you. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word translated forgive in this verse is aphiemi. This does not mean that God will no longer hold our sins against us. God is forgiveness personified. He is the sin pardoning God. What this word means, and which seems to be completely obscure to your understanding, is that God will cause in the sinner for the sin to be remitted, remission, to cleanse the sinner. Not that God holds anything against us. He does not! And Christ's death did not change God's love towards us in the least. It was God's love that caused Him to give His Son. The only way you can be saved is to have sin removed, the sinner restored to righteousness by God. Again, you ignore Ezekiel 18. No at all. I was the one that said it. You say, there is a legal requirement that someone be punished for every single sin committed, and without that, there is no forgiveness, not even understanding what forgiveness is. But that is not forgiveness, that is indeed a cold, Christless legal religion. If you are a complusive gambler and now owe a million dollars and God says, you must pay it, but you can't, but God's Son says, I'll pay that million dollars, does God then say Great! I'll now forgive you. Is that forgiveness? No, first,you debt was not forgiven, you just do not have to pay it yourself. But more importantly, are you still a gambler? You million dollars being paid off is meaningless if you still gamble. I think you blinded by your own retoric. Have I ever said that my own works will save me? Nope. Have I ever said that I am working to gain God's favor? Nope. Christ is the remedy for transgression. Salvation is healing, not legal mumbo jumbo. Sin is not a legal problem. Just as the effects of gravity experienced by jumping off a cliff is not a legal problem. You concept of salvation is destructive power, God must punish. Salvation is Creative Power. Christ is the restorer. Satan is the destroyer. And until the truth about God is understood, His character of love known, people will continue to fear our Loving Father.

Sin is both a legal problem and a ruinous way of living. Man's greed and selfishness has oppressed and damaged and weakened all of God's creation. That is evident all around. Both mankind and satan and his angels have messed greatly with God's creation and the results are evident. The heinous nature of sin is the news of every nights news -- and that's only the tip of the iceberg.

I don't question the evil of sin --
That's why it must be eradicated in the end, for God's peaceful, righteous and harmonious, reign to be once again established.

That's why it can't just be forgiven in justice, without the penalty being paid.
That's why Christ died upon the cross so we can be forgiven.
That's why He lived a perfect life as a human, so He can impute to us his righteousness and set us on the path of righteousness with Him.
That's why all heaven is interested in lifting people OUT of sin into newness of life


You present an interesting situation:


We, like that gambler have our stack of sins which we have committed, there is no way we can pay for our sins and get rid of the guilt. But the law says if it is to have any binding force at all, the penalty of transgression against it must be paid.

At this point -- what hope has the sinner? None. Their transgression against the law demands their death. They are dead in their sins, there is no way they can pay anything to get out of their mess.

But yes, Christ, before the earth was formed pledged to be the "lamb of God" and pay the debt the law demanded of transgressors so that pardon can be granted to repentant sinners.

And yes, when Christ died for our sins, that debt was paid.
Thus if the gambler, that night confessed his sin, God could say, "Great" you are forgiven, == you are "just as if you had never sinned".

Now scripture makes it clear that forgiveness is not license to continue in sin. If the gambler goes back into the life of gambling he is no longer forgiven -- he has rejected the gift and must pay his debt.

That is explained in the parable of the ungrateful servant. That servant was forgiven a huge debt. The king took the lose upon himself, and the servant was free of the debt -- forgiven. But instead of being grateful and now living in his newly bestowed freedom from his sin debt in newness of life, he turned on his fellow servants with cruelty and sinful passion, which caused his sin debt to be returned upon him and he had to pay the penalty.

Justification is not license to sin --
Justification is like taking a dirty, homeless drunk from the street, who has sensed his need, but can't help himself. His redeemer pays any fines against him, and then bathing him, getting him new clothes, giving him a clean apartment and giving him a top notch job with a most respected employer in the nation, complete with all provision to overcome his alcoholism, and a kind helper to encourage him to succeed every step of the way.

Everything is done to lift him out of darkness into a meaningful life. That's what justification is like -- it is forgiveness for the repentant sinner, and being placed into a newness of life, completely by another power -- the power of Christ, and the "helper" the Holy Spirit.

Now he has a choice -- he can, in grateful love take hold of this new life, overcome his alcoholism and seek to rightly represent his employer, leaning on the "kind helper" who encourages him and helps him to succeed every step of the way. That's growing in sanctification.

Or -- he can go back to the street and his bottle and be lost.

Two errors in your question.
The first is that you and APL believe God removes life from transgressors every bit as strongly as we do, you just don't believe God does the actual carrying out of the act but arranges some forces of evil to do it for Him.

Did David kill Uriah?
Scripture says emphatically that he did.
But you (if you are consistent in your reasoning) would say, NO he didn't. David just had Uriah placed in the heat of the battle and withdrew support, sin killed him, not David.
When the giver of life, withdraws His life giving support, He is withdrawing life and thus removing life, the "how" is not the issue.


Thus the question isn't, does God end life, that's not the court case at all We agree that some are given life, the others are denied life. -- unless you agree with Elle, as her view is the only one in which God does not end anyone's life.

The court case is --
SINCE ALL HAVE SINNED, WHY ARE SOME SAVED WHILE OTHERS ARE CONDEMNED TO ETERNAL DEATH?
Is God fair in His selection of who is saved and who is not?


There will be people saved we would never have thought would be there, there will be people lost that we were sure would be there -- the issue that needs to be settled is "Is God fair in His selection of who is inside the holy city and who is outside the holy city -- the devil can bring up a list of sins of every single one.
This is the main reason for the three phased judgment/court levels. 1)The IJ, 2)saints judge during 1000 years, and last the White throne judgment.

APL, why do you omit my references to the changed life, the newness of life in Christ, etc. etc. -- and then blow so much steam that I supposedly believe everyone is handed a blanket card of forgiveness with no regard how this fits in with renewal.

Did you even read the post?



I also noticed you were using a sentence from this quote earlier but omitted one word which completely changed it's meaning. (Though you did quote the full thing eventually)



You wrote: "The atonement of Christ is not a skillful way to have our sins pardoned."

by omitting the word "mere" you completely reversed the meaning.

mere (means ALSO or "not only" or "there's something more than what is specified" )
For example it's not merely hot outside, it is humid.
Does not mean (It is not hot outside)

Thus the atonement of Christ IS NOT ONLY a skillful way to have our sins pardoned, it is also the Divine remedy to cure and restore spiritual health.

Dedication: The question isn’t how they are punished, you APL don't believe transgression needs to be punished. Just that SOME will reap the results of sin.

APL: Where do I say "some"? Yes, the question is HOW. You believe that sin is not that horrible, that it does not cause death…. Transgressors do receive punishment for sin, but the question is HOW? Your idea that God MUST inflict the punishment by direct action of execution makes God out to be a repugnant dictator.

Dedication: I stand by my statement, your post clearly shows it to be true. You don't believe transgression needs to be punished. Just that SOME will reap the results of sin.
Are you expecting to reap the end result of sin – eternal death?
You deny that Christ took your guilt and suffered the punishment for your sins – you state on page 24 of this thread that He was slain by sin, NOT FOR SIN. You state in the post above, that someone taking the penalty for another’s sin is a violation of scripture. You deny that Christ suffered the penalty for your sin. Thus you do not believe transgressions need to be punished.

APL: Our transgression does not need to be punish for what it needs is to be is cured

Dedication: You confirmed my first point -- You don’t believe transgression needs to be punished. Just that SOME will reap the results of sin.



Dedication: You fail to understand what it means that all have sinned,
--that all are guilty before God.
That includes YOU -- it includes ALL, everyone.
Facing the law of God all, that includes everyone, is guilty all are condemned to death, all have forfeited life because of their transgression.
That "all" includes YOU.

APL: Have I claimed to be without sin? Have I claimed that sinners are not condemned to death?...
The wages of sin is death! Repeat - the wages of sin is death. The HOW comes back in to question

Dedication: I didn’t say you claimed to be without sin.
I implied that you do not believe there is any punishment for your transgressions. Yes, you have sinned as all have sinned. You have transgressed God’s law, for all have transgressed God’s law. Thus in your response you have acknowledged that your sins condemn you to death –
In fact you state emphatically that the wages of sin is death.

APL: WHAT are you talking about? WHAT is the plan of redemption? You sound like the devil.

Dedication: Isn’t your view of “redemption” to become good enough with God’s help so the punishment due you as a transgressor of God’s law will be waived, ignored, put aside?
I agree with your statement that it sounds like the devil, for it denies Christ our Substitute.


You seem to believe that if you just manage to become good enough (with help from God) that you can then side step the punishment that is due you as you have transgressed God's law. In the theology you have adopted, all the sinning in your life will not reap any serious punishment if you eventually become good and obedient enough and thus you think the punishment for your transgressions is simply pushed aside, ignored.

APL: Christ's death is not a skillful way to pardon sin. Our transgression does not need to be punish for what it needs is to be is cured. The Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gave Himself for me to do what? Just be punished? That is a violation of Ezekiel 18. Christ gave His life to procure the divine remedy for transgression. His death was not a legal transaction, it was a healing, restorative transaction.

DEDICATION: A half truth, is a whole falsehood.
Christ's death is heaven's means of meeting the demands of a transgressed law, and be able in justice and truth to pardon the sinner. Yes, it is a most amazing and love filled way that heaven devised so sinners can be forgiven.
And Yes, healing is part of the plan as well, a forgiven sinner, who abides in Christ will find newness of life in Christ, no longer serving sin, but living for Christ.
Ezekiel is speaking of our personal responsibility for our sins, no ordinary human can bare my sins and be my substitute, but the Creator of the human race can take the sins of the whole human race and pay the penalty—for He created them and thus open the door of salvation for them.




DEDICATION: If you reject the awesome way God found to uphold the demands of the law and still forgive sinners, then Christ died in vain for your sins, and you must take your own punishment in the end. For, you have transgressed God's law -- you have sinned and the law demands your death -- no matter how many sinful habits you conquer.



But according to your theology, the law can be put aside, ignored, for the law demands your death because you have transgressed God's law, but you imply that it can be ignored if you just become good eventually.

APL: Where have I ever implied that the Law of God can be ignored?

DEDICATION: The law of God is ignored when we say our transgressions of that law don’t matter in all situations. Implying that the wages of your transgression of the law are not death. You believe if you become good enough (law abiding enough) eventually, that sins’ wages of all your transgression of God's law, will be waived.

APL: So by God to restore a sinner back into compliance of the law, that is insufficient for you….What happens when Christ applies the divine remedy that He has procured? That remedy He established at an infinite cost!!! Your LEGAL attitude to sin is just assounding. Why is Satan not fit to return to heaven? Is it because Christ was not punished enough for his sins? Or is it rather that His sin is INCURABLE?

DEDICATION: What does scripture say?
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
“We must center our hopes of heaven upon Christ alone, because He is our Substitute and Surety. We have transgressed the law of God, and by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified.{FR 193}

The problem is – your remedy is something quite different ==
Sin—the transgression of God’s law comes by rebellion to God’s law.
The “remedy” isn’t some infused medicine that drives out a virus, the remedy is Christ dying to release us from the penalty of sin. We are on “death row” without Him, in bondage to sin, slaves to sin, trapped in sin, dead in sin. By freely offering us pardon and justification, He releases us from that bondage. Study romans 6, baptism symbolizes us dying with Christ – that is, our sinful self dying with Christ – He paid the penalty of that old sinful self – we are now to reckon it dead, and we rise to newness of life, in Him, to walk with Him in paths of righteousness.
It’s true that rebellion can never be admitted into heaven. This requires a change in THOUGHT patterns, not a remedy against a virus. Love for Christ, gratitude for the redemption He has bought for us at such a high price, these things have the power to change rebellion into allegiance and total loyalty.
Satan’s “incurability” lies in his total commitment to rebellion against God and His law.

???? To admit that someone is right is NOT a definition of swearing or making an oath.

Then let us suppose that you have brought a valid 4th definition of the word swear --- Your choice of definition (either a) b) c) or d)) has to fit the context of the Biblical text. Your 4th definition doesn't fit either the context as I have shown in Post#179604

However the definition of c)"to swear allegiance" does perfectly fit the context and is a valid word definition of "swear". The translation I've quoted did not add any word -- it only expressed in English what the Hebrew word shaba' means in the context.

Strong's definition of shaba' H7650: propr. to be complete, but used only as a denominative from H7651; to seven oneself, i.e. swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times).

To bring this into context to this discussion, according to Is 45:22-25 ALL, not some, will repent and "confess that Jesus-Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:9-11). No one can say such things without being filled by the Holy Spirit because 1Cor 12:3 tells us, "no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit".

Thus all of these individuals (the unbelievers and the evil-believers-who-were-cast-out-of-the-Kingdom) will come to repentance and accept Jesus as Lord just like me and you have. What the Lord has accomplished in you and I, he will accomplish in all others. This is the meaning of the first fruit harvest -- it is a promise that the remaining crops will be harvested.