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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: dedication]
#181499
09/30/16 06:47 AM
09/30/16 06:47 AM
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OP
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We are very close to end of time, on this point I fully agree.
I also agree we must not wait for a Sunday law to pass before taking this seriously, the sealing time is now and will soon be over. This is very present truth!!! Today is the time to seek the Lord with all our hearts, minds and souls. Today we are to lift up our heads for our redemption draweth nigh.
However, I do not believe we should set a series of dates for events after 1844. Please permit me to explain why.
1. Christ could have come ere this.
In 1883 EGW wrote == " Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people" Ev 695
Thus all the judgment of living and dead and the sealing could have been finished ere 1883. The deadly wound could have been healed ere 1883.
2. The sealing work has been taking place in our lives for many years, it's a process, not a sudden stamped on condition. The Holy Spirit is doing that sealing work in our lives NOW if we are willing and surrendered, and just before probation closes God draws His "blanket" of protection marked with His seal over all who have submitted to the sealing process.
"Before the work is closed up and the sealing of God's people is finished, we shall receive the outpouring of the Spirit of God. Angels from heaven will be in our midst. The present is a fitting-up time for heaven when we must walk in full obedience to all the commands of God.--Letter 30, 1907. {1SM 111.3}
"Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also.
{EW 44.2}
3. The healing of the beast's wound.
To say the wound was healed in 1929 is to deny what caused the wound in the first place. It suggests the "wound" was the losing of the Vatican States, and the healing the regaining of the Vatican States, But in 1798 the Vatican did not lose the Vatican States. It was in 1870, when the annexation of the papal territory put an official end to the Papal States. This was reversed with the Lateran Treaty of 1929, which set up Vatican City as an independent state. To say the wound was healed in 1929 one would have to say it wasn't inflicted until 1870.
However, when one realizes the wound was inflicted in 1798 when there was an official change in LAW removing from the papacy the political power to enforce religion upon the masses, then we realize the healing of the wound will come when LAWS give the papacy (and her daughters) the right to enforce religion upon the masses.
4. The time of trouble has not yet begun
Though the winds of strife are building with relentless power, they are not yet released. Though everything is being set up for oppressive laws taking away religious freedoms, they have not yet been enforced. BUT Don't wait till those winds are released to surrender your lives to God, the sealing process is NOW, and if we submit to that process God's covering of salvation will be over us when those winds are released.
We are VERY CLOSE to the end of time.
When the end comes it will strike with sudden tremendous force.
Yes, the setting of times gets you into trouble real fast, just ask the Jehovah Witnesses.....
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: kland]
#181501
09/30/16 12:07 PM
09/30/16 12:07 PM
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SDA
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So you would mean Pius VI was the 5th head?
Pius VI was the head that received the deadly wound. Thus the papal beast died while he ruled. The head that received the healing was also named Pius (Pius XI) When the papal beast was first seen it was alive and then it died. But after 1929, the papal beast is alive. Thus the prophecy moved from the dead papacy to the living papacy.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: APL]
#181502
09/30/16 12:21 PM
09/30/16 12:21 PM
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You are right...
What happens when Obama is out of office? Will you then back peddle and come up with a different interpretation? The end events will be rapid ones. There is a work to be done now of putting off of sin and knowing God as He is. This is not dependent on Obama being in or out of office. It is not dependent on he being number 44. You missed a very important point in my presentation: Then the command in Revelation 10 to prophesy again is a command to repeat the prophecy in Daniel 11. Much of the history [DAniel 11] that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that "shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." [Verses 31-36, quoted.] {13MR 394.1} Let me ask: What happens when Obama is still in office? When you see him implement the Mark of the Beast? Will you then back peddle and believe the interpretation? Will you then support the work that you have doubted and not spoken of very highly? The end events will be rapid ones. There is a work to be done now of putting off of sin and knowing God as He is and believing His word by faith. This is going to shake the faith of those who doubted that Obama is remaining in office. It is not dependent on him being number 44, but that is an interesting coincidence.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: His child]
#181503
09/30/16 01:22 PM
09/30/16 01:22 PM
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So you would mean Pius VI was the 5th head?
Pius VI was the head that received the deadly wound. Thus the papal beast died while he ruled. The head that received the healing was also named Pius (Pius XI) When the papal beast was first seen it was alive and then it died. But after 1929, the papal beast is alive. Thus the prophecy moved from the dead papacy to the living papacy. So you're saying Pius VI was the 5th head who received the deadly wound. Pius XII would be the 7th head. Why are you persisting otherwise? 5, 6, 7. Count them.
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: Rick H]
#181506
09/30/16 01:38 PM
09/30/16 01:38 PM
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And 12:1 is Christ standing for His people in 1844 ( at the end of the 2300-years). Did you choose not to defend this position? No, Christ has not yet stood up, that is future and near, no have we seen the events of the end of Daniel 11 but that could happen quickly. IF Obama is still in office when the Mark of the Beast falls, ok, but I will no need to back peddle, and it is puzzling to me that you think I would need to. Your message is about your interpretation, I hope you are not disappointed. You have set a time, and if that fails, then what? I'd rather speak of the truth about God that is so resisted by so many, and many Adventists are the most resistant. A message illuminating in its scope and one that is the Eternal Gospel - the 3AM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: APL]
#181507
09/30/16 06:35 PM
09/30/16 06:35 PM
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And 12:1 is Christ standing for His people in 1844 ( at the end of the 2300-years). Did you choose not to defend this position? No, Christ has not yet stood up, that is future and near, no have we seen the events of the end of Daniel 11 but that could happen quickly. There is nothing to defend. Christ stood for His people on 22 October 1844, but that was not the complete final fulfillment. That will happen later. The Lord has shown me in vision, that Jesus rose up, and shut the door, and entered the Holy of Holies, at the 7th month 1844; but Michael's standing up (Daniel 12:1) to deliver His people, is in the future. {WLF 12.4} On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub with their wings spread out over it. Their wings were raised on high, and touched each other above the head of Jesus, as He stood by the ark. {1SG 158.1} IF Obama is still in office when the Mark of the Beast falls, ok, but I will no need to back peddle, and it is puzzling to me that you think I would need to. The condemnation that will fall upon the inhabitants of the earth in this day will be because of their rejection of light. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have lived in error, but from the fact that we have neglected Heaven-sent opportunities for discovering truth. The means of becoming conversant with the truth are within the reach of all; but, like the indulgent, selfish king, we give more attention to the things that charm the ear, and please the eye, and gratify the palate, than to the things that enrich the mind, the divine treasures of truth. It is through the truth that we may answer the great question, "What must I do to be saved?" {BEcho, September 17, 1894 par. 5} Your message is about your interpretation, I hope you are not disappointed. No one has proved it to be in error from the Bible. So the Bible wins. It is a matter of FAITH and thus rightly dividing the word. Esigesis (the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions ) So perhaps you can help me with sorting it out correctly? The facts: Daniel saw 4 sea-beasts (7:1-3) Heaven explained 4 earth-beasts (7:17) Traditionally the sea-beasts have been explained as the "worldwide" kingdoms (Babylon to Rome) Revelation 13 differentiates a sea-beast from an earth-beast. The problem: Traditionally the sea-beasts in Daniel 7 have been taken symbolically and the earth-beasts literally. That Esigesis flies in the face of sound Bible study because the same symbolism exists in Daniel 7 as in Revelation 13 (lion, bear, leopard, sea-beast, and earth-beast) so to have the same item (and only that item) to be symbolic in one chapter and literal in the other cannot be correct. If the traditional Esigesis that the sea-beasts in Daniel 7 are the earth-beasts stands true; then that view destroys the Eschatology, (the study of 'end things', whether the end of an individual life, the end of the age, the end of the world and the nature of the Kingdom of God) that is set forth in Revelation 13. If the Eschatology that has been applied to Revelation 13 by Adventists in the past is correct, then the sea-beasts in Daniel 7 are the old world kingdoms that foreshadow an endtime revelation about the earth-beasts that relates to the new world. The Scriptures don't contradict each other. The symbolic sea-beasts and earth-beasts in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are to be interpreted by the same standard. So if a sea-beast is an earth-beast in Daniel 7 then a sea-beast is an earth-beast in Revelation 13. If a sea-beast is different than an earth-beast in Revelation 13, then a sea-beast is different than an earth-beast in Daniel 7. Esigesis? You have set a time, and if that fails, then what? “Though no man knoweth the day nor the hour of His coming, we are instructed and required to know when it is near. We are further taught that to disregard His warning, and refuse or neglect to know when His Advent is near, will be as fatal for us, as it was for those who lived in the days of Noah not to know when the flood was coming.” GC88 370.2 I'd rather speak of the truth about God that is so resisted by so many, and many Adventists are the most resistant. A message illuminating in its scope and one that is the Eternal Gospel - the 3AM. Is this a salvation issue or one opinion is as good as the next? When the call is given for the 10 virgins to go out to meet the Bridegroom, it will be a matter of life and death if we are not awake and filled with the Holy Spirit at the right time.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: APL]
#181508
09/30/16 06:45 PM
09/30/16 06:45 PM
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Perhaps the most troubling part of your claims is that it is about your tweets, your interpretations, your claims. Your claims are not about Christ but about you. Why is that? There is a message to proclaimed, and many reject this truth. My tweets! They testify that I understood and understand Bible prophecy. Jesus is revealed in Bible prophecy through the Holy Spirit. When prophecy is rightly understood, Jesus is glorified. And my testimony is that Jesus gave me understanding. If you missed that from what I said, then I did not make myself clear to you or the great foe was casting a shadow over my words to make them come across in a negative light.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: Rick H]
#181509
09/30/16 06:54 PM
09/30/16 06:54 PM
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Yes, the setting of times gets you into trouble real fast, just ask the Jehovah Witnesses..... There is a difference between setting times and understanding times. I shared this quote earlier, but it is worthy of repeating. “Though no man knoweth the day nor the hour of His coming, we are instructed and required to know when it is near. We are further taught that to disregard His warning, and refuse or neglect to know when His Advent is near, will be as fatal for us, as it was for those who lived in the days of Noah not to know when the flood was coming.” GC88 370.2 To not know Obama's role in endtime prophecy can be fatal. Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist.(7BC 949.6) “We hope and pray that those who have been visited by the Holy Spirit of God, may not come under the control of Satan, and so incase themselves in unbelief that they will misunderstand, misinterpret, and turn aside the deep movings of the Spirit of God, until darkness like the pall of death shall cover them, and not a ray of light from heaven penetrate the dense darkness in which they have become enshrouded. May no one resist the Spirit of God until the Lord shall say, ‘He is joined to his idols; let him alone.’ (RH, February 13, 1894 par. 5)
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: Rick H]
#181526
10/02/16 04:19 AM
10/02/16 04:19 AM
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Esigesis (the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions )
So perhaps you can help me with sorting it out correctly?
The facts:
Daniel saw 4 sea-beasts (7:1-3)
Heaven explained 4 earth-beasts (7:17)
Traditionally the sea-beasts have been explained as the "worldwide" kingdoms (Babylon to Rome)
Revelation 13 differentiates a sea-beast from an earth-beast.
The problem:
Traditionally the sea-beasts in Daniel 7 have been taken symbolically and the earth-beasts literally. As we near the close of probation there is no time for Esigesis or for adding to the text, or for being dogmatic as to who the last president will be, etc. etc. As we near the close of probation our focus needs to be on our relationship with Christ. Does Christ have our full allegiance? How does the Sabbath show who has our allegiance? Those are questions we need to personally ask ourselves. Probation is closing soon NO MATTER WHO THE PRESIDENT WILL BE. Obama is NOT the antichrist, whether he is still president in 2017 or not makes no difference whatsoever. To get dogmatic on that point is only to create a lot of confusion and unsettle people on the reliability of prophecy. Being correct on one speculative idea while being wrong on dozens of other speculative ideas on prophecy does nothing to further God's sure of prophecy. Put away the Esigesis of speculating on last presidents and last popes, etc. etc. and dwell on the sure word of prophecy, for prophecy is sure -- speculation is shifting sand. THE FACTS -- There are no earth beasts in Daniel 7.In vision Daniel saw four beasts arise OUT OF THE SEA. There are only four beasts in Daniel 7, those four beasts rose out of the sea. So why are you adding four additional beasts and calling them earth beasts? THERE ARE NO EARTH BEASTS IN DANIEL SEVEN.Daniel, in vision, saw only four beasts and they all arose out of the sea. Daniel was troubled -- what do these four sea beasts mean? A heavenly messenger tells him what these four sea beasts mean --they are symbolic of four actual kingdoms that will arise upon the earth. The four sea beasts are symbols The heavenly messenger tells Daniel the meaning of the symbols, the sea beasts are symbolic of actual kingdoms that would arise. 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Symbolic beasts rise out of the sea. They represent four actual kingdoms upon the earth. The fourth beast out of the sea is symbolic of literal ROME. Revelation 13 shows this symbolic sea beast which represents (Rome) continuing as papal Rome, which gets wounded and is healed with the help of a new symbolic "beast" representing a new nation, the USA (the protestants). This new beast in Rev. 13 rises out of the earth and represents the actual "kingdom" we call the USA. Again the "beast" is symbolic, but nation or kingdom it represents is an actual literal nation. The Protestants reach over and join hands with the papacy and with spiritualism and bring in the last crises over worship. We are seeing that happening now -- The sure word of prophecy indicates probation is about to close -- NO MATTER WHO IS THE PRESIDENT.
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Re: Are we at the close of probation?
[Re: dedication]
#181528
10/02/16 10:31 AM
10/02/16 10:31 AM
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your post is pretty much a rehash of what we have discussed before and I have posted the answer on a different thread that you may not have seen yet. So why are you adding four additional beasts and calling them earth beasts?
THERE ARE NO EARTH BEASTS IN DANIEL SEVEN.
To answer your specific question: Daniel 7 begins with sea beasts (Daniel 7:1-3) The origin of these beasts is that they came out of the sea four great beasts came up from the sea <03221> Daniel 7:3 Heaven's interpretation These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth <0772>. Daniel saw beasts that came up out of the sea <03221> and Heaven is explaining beasts that came up out of the earth <0772>. Digging a little deeper I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass Daniel 7:19 There is no mention of BRASS NAILS anywhere in Daniel's vision 7:1-14. The introduction of the brass nails is in conjunction with the interpretation of the vision as is the change of location from the sea <03221> in the vision to the earth <0772> in the interpretation. Earth and sea are different. You say on one thread 4 symbolic sea beasts = 4 actual earthly kingdoms. and then say on this thread THERE ARE NO EARTH BEASTS IN DANIEL SEVEN. But Daniel said that he saw SEA BEASTS and Heaven explained EARTH BEASTS. Different words sea <03221> earth <0772> DIFFERENT BEASTS The post that you may have missed on the other thread is as follows: The facts:
Daniel saw 4 sea-beasts (7:1-3)
Heaven explained 4 earth-beasts (7:17) Here is the first mistake you make. The first statement is true. Dedication, Thank you for graciously taking the time to answer my question. we agree on this point Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The problem remains These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. Daniel 7:17
Thus heaven explains that the 4 sea beasts in the vision ARE symbolic of four earthly kingdoms.
4 symbolic sea beasts = 4 actual earthly kingdoms. Daniel saw sea-beasts--Heaven explains earth-beasts Revelation 13 uses the same symbolism as Daniel 7 lion, bear, leopard, sea-beast, and earth-beast In Revelation 13 lion, bear, leopard, sea-beast, and earth-beast are all symbolic. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other.{7BC 949.6}
Revelation is the supplement of Daniel. {17MR 19.1} Yes Daniel and Revelation explain each other, but Revelation supplements Daniel. Example: Daniel saw beasts arise from the sea and Revelation 17:15 explains the gathered waters (seas) are--"The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." So when Revelation 13 uses the same symbols as Daniel 7 and Rev 13 clearly supplements Dan 7 you agree that sea-beast and earth-beast in Rev 13 are both symbolic, BUT in Daniel 7; you hold that sea-beast is symbolic and earth-beast is literal. Thus heaven explains that the 4 sea beasts in the vision ARE symbolic of four earthly kingdoms.
4 SYMBOLIC SEA BEASTS = 4 ACTUAL EARTHLY KINGDOMS. That view disregards the fact that Revelation 13 indicates that both the sea-beast and earth-beast are symbolic and it is supplementing the meaning of Daniel 7. But rather than allow the Scriptures to explain themselves, you accept the traditional view that places these two texts in contradiction of each other. You quote "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth," Daniel 7:24 to support your position. In 7:17 Heaven declares the earth beasts as KINGS and the translators that understand the 4 kingdom view translate Daniel's words to turn the kings back into kingdoms. Is this a translation issue? The word translated as kingdom in 7:24 is never translated as kingdom <04437> in any other book in the Bible except Daniel and it is not always translated as kingdom in Daniel. Da 5:20 "But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly <04437> throne, and they took his glory from him:" Da 6:3 "Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm <04437>." Da 6:28 "So this Daniel prospered in the reign <04437> of Darius, and in the reign <04437> of Cyrus the Persian." When Heaven declares "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" Why did the translators not remain consistent to Heaven's interpretation: "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth reign <04437> upon earth, which shall be diverse from all reigns <04437>, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces" (Daniel 7:23, supplemented).
"And the ten horns out of this realm <04437> are ten kings that shall arise: and another [reign] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings" (Daniel 7:24, supplemented). Reign would have been more consistent with Heavens interpretation that it is explaining 4 kings but God commanded that the meaning of Daniel was to be sealed until the endtime. Thus the translators fulfilled God's word by interjecting their understanding into their translation. Not until the time of the 4 kings arrived could the meaning of Daniel 7:17 be understood. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12:4
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12:9 So the position that Daniel 7 is about "4 symbolic sea beasts = 4 actual earthly kingdoms" cannot be correct: 1) It makes Daniel 7 contradict Revelation 13 2) Is does not follow the pattern of Revelation 13 that supplements Daniel 7 3) The book of Daniel was sealed until the endtime--the kingdom view was established hundreds of years before the endtime--it cannot be the meaning that was unsealed in the endtime 4) God promised to increase knowledge in the endtime 5) The translation of some words in Daniel contradict the context We must beware of error The professed Christian world has had opportunity to obtain light and knowledge, but many close their eyes lest they shall see. Well-educated, intelligent men preach at the Word and round the Word, but they do not touch its inner meaning. They do not present truth in its genuine simplicity. These men, regarding themselves as authority, tell their hearers that it is not possible to understand either Daniel or the Revelation. Many ministers make no effort to explain the Revelation. They call it an unprofitable book to study. They look upon it as a sealed book, because it contains the truth in figures and symbols. But the very name that has been given to it--"Revelation"--is a denial of their suppositions. The Revelation is a sealed book, but it is also an open book, recording marvelous events that are to take place in the last days of this earth's history. Its teachings are definite, not mystical and unintelligible, and God would have us understand it. {ST, January 11, 1899 par. 5}
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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