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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #183041
03/31/17 04:22 AM
03/31/17 04:22 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Some critics of Seventh-day Adventism cite Mr. Gordon to show that Karaites in 1844 in Palestine had long before adopted Rabbinical reckoning. However, the point is not what the Karaites were doing in 1844, but what the Bible says they should have been doing. If the barley was not ripe enough, then the year could not begin, regardless of what any Karaite or Rabbi said.

If you actually read the document you will notice, Mr. Gordon only provides evidence indicating that the Karaites had originally followed the Biblical reckoning, but slowly, due to difficulty for dispersed Jews to determine the ripeness of barley in the holy land they began using Rabbinical reckoning, first it was just those living far from Palistine, but gradually more and more accepted the calculated dates, rather than the barley harvest date, and thus most of the Karaites kept the feast in 1844 along with the Rabbinical reckoning.

For centuries the Karaites celebrated their feasts a month behind the Rabbinical reckonings.
The Advent/Millerite were ardent Bible students-- they saw that the original Karaite reckoning was Biblical and they followed that.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: dedication] #183043
03/31/17 06:22 AM
03/31/17 06:22 AM
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dedication, are you ignoring the historical account of all the Karaites using the Rabbinic 19yrs cycle in the 19th century? Probably you haven't read [lately or objectively] Gordon's document.


"Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere."

..."As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860)
"

Quote:
Official Karaite documentation

Subject: Yom Kippur 1844
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:07:55 +0200
From: The Karaite Korner karaite@netvision.net.il

Dear Sir,

In the past you have asked regarding the Karaite date of Yom Kippur 1844. I have recently received further inquiries in this matter and have done some investigation of this subject. Here are my preliminary results:

In the Middle Ages the Karaites ardently maintained that the Biblical year begins with the ripeness of the Barley crop in Israel (called in the Bible "Abib"). The Rabbinic calendar had originally followed this practice but around the 9th century CE they adopted a 19 year cycle of intercalation (leap years) which approximates the Abib but which is far from accurate. This often caused a difference of a month between the Karaite and Rabbanite calendars. The Seventh Day Adventist tradition seems to have heard of this Karaite practice or perhaps they assumed it was the Karaite practice based on their (correct) assumption that the Karaites strictly follow the Bible. The Abib was a central issue to the Karaites and to this day the Karaite marriage contract includes a vow that the marrying couple will celebrate the holidays "according to the visibility of the moon and the appearance of the Abib in the land of Israel." However, already in the Middle Ages there were Karaite communities who slowly adopted the Rabbinic 19 year cycle. At first it was only Karaites in the distant lands of the Dispersion who followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle. They claimed that it was difficult to receive reports of the state of the Barley crop in Israel from so far away. As late as the 15th century though the Karaites of the Holy Land continued to follow the Abib even though their compatriots in the Dispersion accepted the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. The 15th century Karaite Hacham Elijah Baschyatchi writes:

"Having explained that the beginning of the year according to the law of our Torah is according to the Abib which is found is the Land of Israel in the conditions which we have mentioned, because of our great sins we have been distanced from the Holy Land and we do not have the capability of finding the Abib, we have been forced to follow the Calculation of Intercalation like that done by our brothers the Rabbanites..."

"And the Hacham R' Aharon [ben Elijah] author of the book 'Etz Haim' also said** that in the 269th cycle we heard that in the 4th year of the cycle [i.e. 1354/1355 C.E.] what was for us the month of Elul was for the people of the Land of Israel the month of Tishrei...' ... And this has also happened in our [Baschyatchi's] times in the year 5240 [i.e. 1479/1480 C.E.], the 15th year of the cycle, people went from our community in the Holy City [i.e. Jerusalem] and said that the 14th year of the 276 cycle, which we are in, which was for us an intercalated year [i.e. 13 months] was for them a regular year [i.e. 12 months]. And our faith should not be weakened by this because they [in Israel] go after the observable and we [in the Diaspora] go after approximation... The end of the matter is, all maintain the legal decision that the inhabitants of the Land of Israel should go according to the Abib in the Land of Israel and those far away should go after the calculation of intercalation of leap years and simple years." (From Aderet Eliyahu by Elijah Baschyatchi, Israel 1966, p.39a (written in the 15th century) [translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon, square brackets added by translator for clarity])

As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860) [translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon, square brackets added by translator for clarity.]

Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere.

That Yom Kippur 1844 was celebrated by the Karaites in September and not October is confirmed by a Karaite Tomb Stone inscription cited by Abraham Firkowitz in his book Avnei Zicharon (lit. Stones of Remembrance, published Vilna 1872). It should be noted that while claims have been made that Firkowitz altered some of the inscriptions cited in his book, all of these dubious accusations are in regards to Tomb Stones from the early centuries of the Common Era and there can be no doubt as to the authenticity of the later Tomb Stones, especially those from the 19th century. On p.242 Firkowitz quotes from a Karaite Tomb Stone from the "New Cemetary" in Gozlow which reads:

"And Yosef Shlomoh died at seventy five years of age. And all Israel mourned him and cried for him 'Woe master and woe his glory'. And they buried him in great honor on the 12th day of the month Tevet in the year 605 of the sixth millenium since creation according to our counting, and according to the counting of Rome, the tenth of the month December in their year 1844 here in Gozlow, or Yeupetoria, on the Crimean Peninsula in the reign of the master the great and mighty Czar, King of Russia and the other lands, that is, the Emporer his majesty Nicolai the first Pavelovitz in the twentieth year of his reign, and in the sixty-first year of this Crimean Peninsula being under the rule of the Kings of Russia since the days of the Czarina Catherine the Second who conquered it from the hand of the Tartaric king and Shekhan Gari Khan who was king of Crimea at that time." [Translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon]

As can be seen the Karaite date 12 Tevet corresponds to December 10, 1844. Bearing in mind that the Russian Empire used the Julian calendar, December 10 of the Julian year must be understood to refer to December 22 in the Gregorian year (i.e. the system used universally today). If 12 Tevet was equivalent to December 22, 1844 (Gregorian) then Tevet would have begun on December 10 (Gregorian). Bearing in mind that Tevet is the tenth Hebrew month and Tishrei (in which Yom Kippur falls out) is the seventh Hebrew month it becomes clear that Yom Kippur 1844 must have been celebrated in late September and not late October. This is illustrated in the following correlation of months for months in late 1844:

September 14/15* = Tishrei 1 (Yom Kippur = September 23)
October 13/14* = Heshvan 1
November ? = Kislev 1
December 10 = Tevet 1
*The correct date for the beginning of these months, based on the predicted visibility of the New Moon, would have been September 15 and October 14 (both beginning the prior evening). However, it is possible that with some of the inaccurate calculation system used by the Karaites in the 19th century some Karaites may have observed the beginning of these months one day earlier. It would seem that according to the system of Isaac ben Solomon, which was wide-spread in the 19th century, some Karaites would have celebrated September 14th as the beginning of the month and not September 15th [this last fact has been relayed to me by Magdi Shamuel, an expert on the Karaite calendar and lunar crescent visibility]. October 13th would not have been celebrated as the beginning of the month even according to Isaac ben Solomon's system. However, further investigation is required to rule out the possibility that some Karaites would have celebrated the beginning of the month on October 13th instead of October 14th.

**The original report of Aharon ben Elijah regarding the difference of one month between the Karaite calendar in Israel and the Diaspora in 1354/1355 C.E. can be found in his book Gan Eden, Israel 1972 (written in the 14th century), p.22a

Thank you,

Nehemia Gordon
Jerusalem, Israel

Visit the KARAITE KORNER


Blessings
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: kland] #183044
03/31/17 06:29 AM
03/31/17 06:29 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Posts: 2,264
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
After starting this topic 11 years ago I just came across a fascinating statement in the appendix of the 1888 GC, page 681.4:
Quote:
Anciently the year did not commence in midwinter, as now, but at the first new moon after the vernal equinox. Therefore, as the period of 2300 days was begun in a year reckoned by the ancient method, it was considered necessary to conform to that method to its close. hence, 1843 was counted as ending in the spring, and not in the winter. {GC88 681.4}


Apparently by 1888 the consensus of the church and Ellen White was that the ancient correct reckoning of the Biblical New Year and therefore the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844 was based on the first new moon after the vernal equinox not the first new moon of the barley harvest as taught by the Karaites.
(It's always important to check quotes!)
I noticed that the above quote is in the capitalized NOTES section of the great controversy. Did Ellen White, or other inspired writers write that? If not, it could still be correct, though.

But tell me if I'm wrong, the purpose of the note, when you read the context of the referenced page 328, is to solely point out that the years did not coincide with our years and therefore the calculations had to be made from spring rather than our December/January. The purpose of the note was not to determine whether calculations were made based on spring barley or spring equinox but purely that it was spring and not our year end.

Do you agree?


But you do realize, starting the year based on the equinox, is NOT found in the Bible. Starting the year based upon Barley IS found in the Bible.

Regardless of which method, you do realize that the new moon after the equinox varies by up to a month depending upon the location on the earth.

The Jewish calendar system was for the Jewish economy.


If I understand you correctly, kland, I agree with you. The point is that the Jewish year started in the spring of the year and not the winter. Consequently, I agree that we need to use that same calendar used at the beginning of the prophecy to decide its ending time.

Also, could it be that the vernal equinox is used in these last days instead of the barley harvest is because we don't know when the barley harvest would actually be?

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: ] #183045
03/31/17 06:39 AM
03/31/17 06:39 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.


Excellent point Gary.

I believe we just need to take our time in understanding all these details. With the alternatives being so very wrong, I still believe we got it right. The fruits have born that out for over 150 years now.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Alchemy] #183048
03/31/17 10:36 AM
03/31/17 10:36 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Excellent point Gary,
I believe we just need to take our time in understanding all these details. With the alternatives being so very wrong, I still believe we got it right.

dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

BTW in case some aren't aware, Nehemiah Gordon is the official recognize guy that goes to Jerusalem with a team yearly to do the barley inspection and submits the Barley-ripeness yearly report and als the monthly sighting of the first crescent to the whole Karaite society.

He had published that article on the Karaite Korner site...and if his historical account wasn't true...then he would of had some serious ripple from the Karaite society disproving it and being removed from his position for falsifying historical data about the society he represent.

Let me requote part of Nehemia Gordon's letter:

"Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere."

..."As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860)
"


Blessings
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Elle] #183050
03/31/17 02:56 PM
03/31/17 02:56 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

Most excellent observation, Elle.
If someone wants people to take them and/or their position seriously, they must in turn take others and their position seriously. You don't have to agree with their position, but you must recognize that they have their reasons and evidences which, to them, are valid.

It's an aspect of legitimate scholarship.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Elle] #183052
03/31/17 04:34 PM
03/31/17 04:34 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2023
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Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Excellent point Gary,
I believe we just need to take our time in understanding all these details. With the alternatives being so very wrong, I still believe we got it right.

dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

BTW in case some aren't aware, Nehemiah Gordon is the official recognize guy that goes to Jerusalem with a team yearly to do the barley inspection and submits the Barley-ripeness yearly report and als the monthly sighting of the first crescent to the whole Karaite society.

He had published that article on the Karaite Korner site...and if his historical account wasn't true...then he would of had some serious ripple from the Karaite society disproving it and being removed from his position for falsifying historical data about the society he represent.

Let me requote part of Nehemia Gordon's letter:

"Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere."

..."As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860)
"


Elle,

I can show you scholarship from Doctor of Divinity programs in which it is said that the Christian church cannot survive unless it becomes, basically, a socialist organization that focuses on on community activities and leaves the Bible behind. There is all kinds of quoting from sociology studies, New Testament scholars, all kinds of polls of why people have left Christianity behind, etc....

There is very little Bible involved in these theses. God is rarely mentioned, but, oh, is there scholarship. All kinds of it. And this is coming out of reputable universities who have people involved that are very influential in Christianity today. Should these ideas be accepted because they have lots of scholarship behind them and the people from which the ideas are really emanating are very influential, very educated people in the Christian community?

Does it matter that they deny the revelation God has given in His word and go to other sources? Does it matter that their faith in God is basically nonexistent and their faith in human reason reigns supreme? I am positive that Nehemia Gordon can give a well-written defense of his rejection of Jesus as the Messiah and give all kinds of scholarship as his reasoning. Should that be accepted because it is scholarship?

Now, I know you don't accept Ellen White, and that is your choice to do, but I do. I look at her writings and visions as revelation from God. When she was given visions confirming the correctness of the conclusions that the early church pioneers came to am I supposed to set aside revelation from God because someone who rejects Jesus as the Messiah says the early church pioneers were wrong? I don't think so.

This goes back to the Greek thinking of accepting rationality over revelation. I will go with revelation every time. I will reject the conclusions of rationalism every time. I have far more trust in God than I do in humanity. Humanity can be led around by the nose by the devil, and often is. That is my choice, and it is a valid choice. And since it is my choice, you cannot argue against it. Isn't that what I have seen you or Nadi say on this forum in other places?

Last edited by Gary K; 03/31/17 04:36 PM.
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Alchemy] #183053
03/31/17 04:43 PM
03/31/17 04:43 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
If I understand you correctly, kland, I agree with you. The point is that the Jewish year started in the spring of the year and not the winter. Consequently, I agree that we need to use that same calendar used at the beginning of the prophecy to decide its ending time.

Also, could it be that the vernal equinox is used in these last days instead of the barley harvest is because we don't know when the barley harvest would actually be?

Deciding the endtime of what prophecy?

Are you suggesting that after the end of the Jewish dispensation and the beginning of the Christian dispensation, there was a change from the Biblical calendar to a equinox calendar? Is that in the Bible?

Regarding the elimination of confusion, could you describe how the first new moon after the equinox would be realized at various parts of our round world?

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #183054
03/31/17 04:45 PM
03/31/17 04:45 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Elle, could you quote where the Adventists specifically used the Karaites calendar reckoning rather than following what the Bible says?

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: kland] #183057
03/31/17 11:37 PM
03/31/17 11:37 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, could you quote where the Adventists specifically used the Karaites calendar reckoning rather than following what the Bible says?


How if you and Dedication and those who view the Karaite method as Biblical provide the scripture in support of that view. Lord willing I will provide the scripture for the vernal equinox rule.

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