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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Charity]
#183219
04/10/17 08:53 AM
04/10/17 08:53 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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If Passover was Friday, then the lamb would have been eaten on Thursday night. Friday night is part of the Sabbath, not Friday. I think Ellen White's statements agree with this.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Charity]
#183223
04/10/17 12:35 PM
04/10/17 12:35 PM
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Did the feast begin on the 14th of the month or the 15th?
The use of unleavened bread also was significant. It was expressly enjoined in the law of the Passover, and as strictly observed by the Jews in their practice, that no leaven should be found in their houses during the feast. In like manner the leaven of sin must be put away from all who would receive life and nourishment from Christ. {PP 278.1}
Therefore, all leaven must be put out of the house by the end of which day? The 14th because the feast would begin at sunset and all leaven had to be out of the house (a type also of the close of probation), and in the year of Christ's crucifixion, the first day of the feast was also the 7th-day sabbath. When was the lamb to be sacrificed? On the 14th at the close of the day. The 14th was the preparation day for the celebration of the Passover, and in the year Christ died, also or the weekly Sabbath.
That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb. {DA 774.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Charity]
#183224
04/10/17 12:36 PM
04/10/17 12:36 PM
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These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain. And as the antitype of the wave sheaf our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day, "the first fruits of them that slept," a sample of all the resurrected just, whose "vile body" shall be changed, and "fashioned like unto His glorious body." Verse 20; Philippians 3:21. {GC 399.3}
Mark, what am I missing here?
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: kland]
#183225
04/10/17 12:52 PM
04/10/17 12:52 PM
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This should be read along with this one: Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. . . . Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
How would a simple person, let's say a fifth grader, understand this? Yes, that's one I had in mind. The new moon after the equinox could vary up to a month. If the sheaf (And yes, it doesn't explicitly say "Barley"), is to be waved, then what do they do when it's just not there? Or what do they do when the grain was almost ripe a month ago, can they not harvest their grain till a month later? That instruction specifically revolves around offering a wave sheath. It is part of the feast ceremony. Without the sheaf, it would be. Then there's the inductive way of when the plagues of Egypt hit and Ex 9:31 And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled., followed by the this being the beginning of months for you. Not so strong, but the flax and barley was in the ear, and when coupled with the wording of the actual statute given with presenting a sheaf for the wave offering, there seems pretty strong evidence. I'm anxious to hear support for the equinox from the Bible. No one has been able to do that. Maybe you can show that it's the spring equinox which starts the year. Mark, here's another I had come across before reading it from APL: Deu 16:9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
Nothing about equinox. Everything about grain harvest. What sheaf would be offered as part of the wave offering if the grain is a month late? How can bread be offered for the feast of weeks if it's a month late? In your area, can the wave sheaf be offered now? Not here.
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183230
04/10/17 03:45 PM
04/10/17 03:45 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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If Passover was Friday, then the lamb would have been eaten on Thursday night. Friday night is part of the Sabbath, not Friday. I think Ellen White's statements agree with this. How do you figure that GC? What day of the month are you saying Thursday of the crucifixion week was - the 13th? For the last 48 hours I've been considering the possibility that the Passover was kept anciently at the start of the 14th day rather than at the end but I don't think so. The modern Jews have the timing right I think so far as the time of day is concerned and the day of the month. But they may be a day early in calculating the start of the month sometimes.
Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 04/10/17 03:50 PM.
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Charity]
#183233
04/10/17 07:40 PM
04/10/17 07:40 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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It is an interesting observation that today is Nisan 14, for 2017. Tomorrow would be Nisan 15, the ceremonial Sabbath, and Wednesday of this week, the Wave Sheaf would be presented. Pentecost would be 50 days later. I believe this calendar has it right.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: APL]
#183234
04/10/17 10:26 PM
04/10/17 10:26 PM
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OP
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All leaven must be put out of the house by the end of which day? The 14th because the feast would begin at sunset and all leaven had to be out of the house (a type also of the close of probation), and in the year of Christ's crucifixion, the first day of the feast was also the 7th-day sabbath. I agree that leaven was put out of the house by the end of the 14th and the Passover lamb was slain on the afternoon of the 14th. The Passover meal was eaten by Christ and the disciples that evening, the first day of Unleavened Bread, the 15th. Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
So I'm persuaded that the Passover lamb was slain on the afternoon of Thursday the 14th, that our Savior ate the meal that evening after sundown on the 15th, was crucified the 15th, rested on the Sabbath on the 16th and rose from the grave on the 17th. That appears to agree best with scripture. The only problem I can see with that APL is Ellen White's statement in DA and PP that you quoted which are identical in thought. These appear to conflict with that but her other statements support it so it's our job to retain all the inspired statements and seek for the underlying harmony.
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Charity]
#183239
04/11/17 05:24 AM
04/11/17 05:24 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
So I'm persuaded that the Passover lamb was slain on the afternoon of Thursday the 14th, that our Savior ate the meal that evening after sundown on the 15th, was crucified the 15th, rested on the Sabbath on the 16th and rose from the grave on the 17th. That appears to agree best with scripture. The only problem I can see with that APL is Ellen White's statement in DA and PP that you quoted which are identical in thought. These appear to conflict with that but her other statements support it so it's our job to retain all the inspired statements and seek for the underlying harmony. Granted -- this topic has been debated by scholars and theologians for centuries. Even scripture does not seem to agree on this matter which has perpetuated this debate. Yet I do think an anchor point is this: Christ was slain at the time the Passover Lamb was to be slain. Which was in the afternoon of Nisan 14th.Starting at that anchor point I can't agree with your above summary -- rather I believe -- Christ celebrated the Last Supper the eve of Nisan 14th (Thursday) Christ died on Friday afternoon (Nisan 14th) the very time the Passover Lamb was slain. He rested in the tomb Saturday, which was a high Sabbath being the 7th day Sabbath as well as the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15th) He rose Sunday (Nisan 16th) The gospel of John indicates that Jewish Passover Supper came after Christ's death. That Christ died on the preparation day for the Passover (which is the time the Passover Lamb was slain) John 13:1 Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come.... 13:2 And supper being ended... 13:4 He rose from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel 13:5 After he poured water into a basin, he began to wash the disciples' feetLater concerning Judas leaving: 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. Those texts seem to indicate that this supper was eaten before Passover. That they still needed some things for the actual feast. The rest of the disciples thought Jesus sent Judas out to buy some groceries or something. That is another clue -- if this were Passover night the 15th, all stores would have been closed, why would the disciples think Judas was sent to buy something? John 18:28 states that the Jewish accusers of Jesus “did not enter the praetorium, so that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover” (RSV).
So these accusers had not eaten the Passover yet, when Jesus was being tried before Pilae. They refused to enter the building because it would defile them and they wouldn't be able to the Passover. Furthermore, John 19:14-18 places Christ's trial before Pilate before Passover. Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, “Behold, your King!” They therefore cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate saith unto them, “Shall I crucify your King?” In conclusion, then, the first three gospels seem to present the picture that the Last Supper was the Passover meal, whereas John's gospel gives the idea that the Passover was not celebrated by the Jews until after Jesus’ death. So we don't just have to harmonize EGW's statements, the scriptures themself present the same dilemma. Interestingly,in the Talmud, early Jewish rabbis concluded that Jesus was “hanged on Passover Eve for heresy and misleading the people” (Bruce, 1960, p. 101). The editors of the Pulpit Commentary wrote: “It appears that our Lord was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, on the very day of the sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb, a few hours before the time of the Paschal Supper, and that his own Last Supper was eaten the night before, that is, twenty-four hours before the general time of eating the Passover Supper” (Spence and Exell, n.d., pp. 196-197, emp. in orig.). Some have suggested (like the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia) that the Galileans and/or the Pharisees ate the Passover on Thursday night (Nisan 14) and the Judeans and/or the Sadducees ate the Passover on Friday night. Hence, Jesus and His disciples were among those who ate the Passover on Thursday. Since a great number of people would be eating the Passover on Thursday evening, the priests would accommodate them (as in other years) with an earlier Passover sacrifice. However-- no matter how it is explained, I believe Christ, as the Lamb of God, as the fulfillment of the type, died at the very time when the symbolic Passover Lamb was to be slain.
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: Charity]
#183240
04/11/17 06:47 AM
04/11/17 06:47 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Western, USA
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In the year of Christ's crucifixion, the 14th was Friday (our Thursday night Friday day). Christ was crucified on Friday (9AM to 3PM). He rested in the grave on the 15th, and rose on the 16th. This is all consistent with EGW and the Bible. Yes, Jesus ate the meal with His disciples on the 14th, Thursday evening, before He was crucified later on the 14th. The Feast of Unleaven Bread starts on the 15th, not the 14th. The wave sheaf was presented on the 16th, the day Christ rose from the dead. I completely disagree with your last paragraph Mark.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?
[Re: dedication]
#183248
04/11/17 08:08 AM
04/11/17 08:08 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Good job Dedication! The first points regarding Judas etc are noteworthy but not persuasive IMO but these texts are strong support for your position: John 18:28 states that the Jewish accusers of Jesus “did not enter the praetorium, so that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover” (RSV).
Furthermore, John 19:14-18 places Christ's trial before Pilate before Passover.
Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, “Behold, your King!” They therefore cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate saith unto them, “Shall I crucify your King?” This explanation you've given would account for the discrepancy in the other gospels - that even in Christ's day there was a difference of opinion on when the month began by one day and so Christ could eat the Passover by Galilean reckoning which was on the first day of Unleavened Bread for them, and be offered on the more recognized date, one day later. That agrees well with the character of God. He works with our limited understanding regardless of which class we identify with, enlightening us until we all come in unity of the faith to a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. I'm still looking at this but I'm very happy with the thought that we may arrived at the true understanding of this centuries old problem.
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