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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: His child] #183392
04/21/17 01:51 PM
04/21/17 01:51 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child
3) When the prophecy in Daniel 7 is used to interpret itself the meaning is not the same as when Heaven's interpretation is used to interpret it.
I don't understand, why are you saying Daniel 7 is not Heaven's interpretation? Or are you saying YOU are 'Heaven's Interpretation'?

Quote:
As I studied this I went with the Ancient Babylonian calendar (New Year's Day 28 March 2017)
Again, besides all the other errors, this is absolutely wrong! You have yet to show the Ancient Babylonian year would start on 28 March 2017.

And I doubt you will, can, nor even understand the objection.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #183394
04/21/17 02:06 PM
04/21/17 02:06 PM
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kland  Offline
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Quote:
They look upon the failures of the time-setters with disgust,

Yep.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: His child] #183396
04/21/17 02:49 PM
04/21/17 02:49 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: dedication
The testimonies not only condemn definite actual dates in time settings, they also warn against approximate time predictions like we've been hearing here -- like; Jesus will come within one or two or three years.

They also warn against setting time periods for probation to close and the latter rain to fall.


It would be time wasted to go through each of your Spirit of Prophecy quotes and point out that they are in or out of context.

But it is obvious that I am being misunderstood.

1) Prophetic time giving the day and hour of Christ's Coming ended in 1844.

2) Literal time prophecy continues from 1844 until Christ Comes.

3) When the prophecy in Daniel 7 is used to interpret itself the meaning is not the same as when Heaven's interpretation is used to interpret it.

4) When Heaven's interpretation of the prophecy in Daniel 7 is used to interpret it, the kings from the earth are Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama. That is where the prophecy ends.

5) The Ram in Daniel 8 has 2 horns. The first is Bush I and the second is Bush II who came up last. And the she/he goat is Bill and Hilary Clinton. The broken horn is Bill Clinton who trampled Bush I and Hilary trampled Bush II. The notable one is Colon Powell from which Bush II and Barack Obama were propelled to be President. Obama is the little horn that magnifies himself.

6) Since Obama has left office and Trump is now president, Trump has to fulfill the self-magnification aspect of prophecy (Daniel 8) in the time allotted to Obama or Obama has to return to office before 19 January 2018. As I studied this I went with the Ancient Babylonian calendar (New Year's Day 28 March 2017) It didn't happen. So I'm looking to 19 January 2018. But as I think about it. America counts the year from 1 January and Mr Obama left office 20 days into the New Year. So if 1 January is the correct day for the the start of the year in this prophecy, one of 2 things has to happen. Christ will come before 31 December 2018 or President Obama will be back in office by that date rather than 19 January 2018 as i had earlier thought.

7) Time is not the big factor here. But as I explain my studies, time is what you get hung up on. The Big factor is Daniel 7 & 8 clearly identify President Obama. So to fail to see that we are in the final sealing time and to fail to give the third angel's message the right sound at this time is to fail to watch the prophecies.

That is where I stand until more light comes.

If the evidence from Revelation 13, 16, 17, and 18 is viewed in its proper context, the case is even stronger.

This is the shaking time when Bible students will be divided from others who do not study as they ought.

The testimonies tell us that some things will have a final or complete fulfillment, but not everyone will understand or accept the Present Truth when it is upon us.


It is rather despicable that the self-righteous vagabonds on this site so vehemently oppose you.

When William Miller was preaching that the world was coming to an end, possibly in Fall 1843 (when that failed, Spring 1844 ... then the Fall of the same year -- and even THAT failed), he was CLEARLY contradicting the words of Jesus Christ in Mat. 24:36.

Nevertheless, Ellen White had this to say about that whole questionable episode in the pre-historic era of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, "I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and HID A MISTAKE in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed." (EW 74.1)

Who then is to say that a hand is not over your eyes, but is serving an overarching purpose which you do not yet see, much less understand? SDA, of all people, should be the most accommodating of all kinds of prophets, from the benign to the outright nutcase; lest the hand be turned against them for rejecting the misguided ones (e.g. William Miller and his crazy rooster crowing all hours of the night).

See here

///

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #183398
04/21/17 09:08 PM
04/21/17 09:08 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Matthew 24:36 ranks among the most misunderstood texts among Seventh-day Adventists. It does NOT refer to the second coming. Where in the verse does one see any mention of the second advent?

Surprise! It's not there. The explanation continues in the following verses, and a correlation is made to the time of the Flood, in Noah's day. The "day" Jesus speaks of in those verses is not the day of Flood. If you don't believe me, go look again. It was the day that Noah entered the ark. What happened that day? God shut the door. But they "knew not until the flood came" (seven days later). What didn't they know? They didn't know that their probation had already closed, and they were lost.

Just as critical and frightening, if not more so, as rejecting the testimonies of Ellen White, is the prospect of rejecting the teachings of the Bible--for whatever reason, misunderstanding them included.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The truth and the glory of God are inseparable; it is impossible for us, with the Bible within our reach, to honor God by erroneous opinions. Many claim that it matters not what one believes, if his life is only right. But the life is molded by the faith. If light and truth is within our reach, and we neglect to improve the privilege of hearing and seeing it, we virtually reject it; we are choosing darkness rather than light. {GC 597.2}


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: His child] #183399
04/21/17 09:38 PM
04/21/17 09:38 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child

5) The Ram in Daniel 8 has 2 horns. The first is Bush I and the second is Bush II who came up last. And the she/he goat is Bill and Hilary Clinton. The broken horn is Bill Clinton who trampled Bush I and Hilary trampled Bush II. The notable one is Colon Powell from which Bush II and Barack Obama were propelled to be President. Obama is the little horn that magnifies himself.


The above interpretation comes only through a rejection of what Mrs. White tells us.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
“And he had two horns like a lamb.” The lamb-like horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as “coming up” in 1798. The Christian exiles who first fled to America, sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance, and they determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. The Declaration of Independence sets forth the great truth that “all men are created equal,” and endowed with the inalienable right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and down-trodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC88 441.1}

But the beast with lamb-like horns “spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, . . . saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.” [Revelation 13:11-14.] {GC88 441.2}

The lamb-like horns and dragon voice of the symbol point to a striking contradiction between the professions and the practice of the nation thus represented. The “speaking” of the nation is the action of its legislative and judicial authorities. By such action it will give the lie to those liberal and peaceful principles which it has put forth as the foundation of its policy. The prediction that it will speak “as a dragon,” and exercise “all the power of the first beast,” plainly foretells a development of the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented by the dragon and the leopard-like beast. And the statement that the beast with two horns “causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,” indicates that the authority of this nation is to be exercised in enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to the papacy. {GC88 442.1}

Such action would be directly contrary to the principles of this government, to the genius of its free institutions, to the direct and solemn avowals of the Declaration of Independence, and to the Constitution. The founders of the nation wisely sought to guard against the employment of secular power on the part of the church, with its inevitable result—intolerance and persecution. The Constitution provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” and that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office of public trust under the United States.” Only in flagrant violation of these safeguards to the nation's liberty, can any religious observance be enforced by civil authority. But the inconsistency of such action is no greater than is represented in the symbol. It is the beast with lamb-like horns—in profession pure, gentle, and harmless— that speaks as a dragon. {GC88 442.2}


Careful readers of the above will note that the two principles that give the beast its power are: Republicanism and Protestantism. These two principles come from the constitutional guarantee of the right of self-government, with people having elected representatives to enact and administer laws, and from the freedom of religion. These two things give America its power. Horns represent power in Scripture, just as wings represent speed, etc. America has had its power since its inception. Mrs. White speaks of its rise in 1798. Bush I and Bush II were not on the scene at that time.

Originally Posted By: His Child
6) Since Obama has left office and Trump is now president, Trump has to fulfill the self-magnification aspect of prophecy (Daniel 8) in the time allotted to Obama or Obama has to return to office before 19 January 2018. As I studied this I went with the Ancient Babylonian calendar (New Year's Day 28 March 2017) It didn't happen. So I'm looking to 19 January 2018. But as I think about it. America counts the year from 1 January and Mr Obama left office 20 days into the New Year. So if 1 January is the correct day for the the start of the year in this prophecy, one of 2 things has to happen. Christ will come before 31 December 2018 or President Obama will be back in office by that date rather than 19 January 2018 as i had earlier thought.

You are still date-setting, which shows you do not understand Mrs. White's messages on this topic. I can assure you that your dates above are wrong. I knew well ahead of your March/April dates that you gave for this year that you would be proven incorrect, and I am equally confident that your dates for 2018 are wrong. In fact, given what Mrs. White says about time setting, you sin in putting forward such dates. Some may be led astray in disappointment when your predictions do not come to pass. Others will be given occasion to mock. In no case is God glorified by it.

Originally Posted By: His Child
7) Time is not the big factor here. But as I explain my studies, time is what you get hung up on. The Big factor is Daniel 7 & 8 clearly identify President Obama. So to fail to see that we are in the final sealing time and to fail to give the third angel's message the right sound at this time is to fail to watch the prophecies.

That is where I stand until more light comes.


If time is not a big factor here, why keep urging times? I urge you, brother, to change your focus. What is the third angel's message? It is about the worship of and obedience to God, lest we receive the plagues of His wrath (see Revelation 14). That message is our duty to give to the world. Obeying God has little to do with who may or may not be president. It has nothing to do with when He will come (that time is not up to us to decide). Our duty is to be ready every day for His coming.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Green Cochoa] #183400
04/21/17 11:12 PM
04/21/17 11:12 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Matthew 24:36 ranks among the most misunderstood texts among Seventh-day Adventists. It does NOT refer to the second coming. Where in the verse does one see any mention of the second advent?

Surprise! It's not there. The explanation continues in the following verses, and a correlation is made to the time of the Flood, in Noah's day. The "day" Jesus speaks of in those verses is not the day of Flood. If you don't believe me, go look again. It was the day that Noah entered the ark. What happened that day? God shut the door. But they "knew not until the flood came" (seven days later). What didn't they know? They didn't know that their probation had already closed, and they were lost.


Thank you for clarifying the obvious: "Matthew 24:36 ranks among the most misunderstood texts among SDA." Indeed SDA teach, as you say, that it means no one will know when "probation had already closed ...."

BUT Jesus Christ said (v. 42-44) ...

Quote:

  • THEREFORE watch, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
     
  • But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
     
  • THEREFORE you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.



In conclusion, we see how SDA cunningly misapply Mat. 24:36 to their peculiar doctrine of a close of probation (as part of a broader defiance of the truth). Jesus Christ however, plainly teaches us that it refers to the Second Advent: that "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Shouldn't we listen to God, rather than (wo)man?

///

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: James Peterson] #183401
04/22/17 12:22 AM
04/22/17 12:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Matthew 24:36 ranks among the most misunderstood texts among Seventh-day Adventists. It does NOT refer to the second coming. Where in the verse does one see any mention of the second advent?

Surprise! It's not there. The explanation continues in the following verses, and a correlation is made to the time of the Flood, in Noah's day. The "day" Jesus speaks of in those verses is not the day of Flood. If you don't believe me, go look again. It was the day that Noah entered the ark. What happened that day? God shut the door. But they "knew not until the flood came" (seven days later). What didn't they know? They didn't know that their probation had already closed, and they were lost.


Thank you for clarifying the obvious: "Matthew 24:36 ranks among the most misunderstood texts among SDA." Indeed SDA teach, as you say, that it means no one will know when "probation had already closed ...."

BUT Jesus Christ said (v. 42-44) ...

Quote:

  • THEREFORE watch, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
     
  • But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
     
  • THEREFORE you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.



In conclusion, we see how SDA cunningly misapply Mat. 24:36 to their peculiar doctrine of a close of probation (as part of a broader defiance of the truth). Jesus Christ however, plainly teaches us that it refers to the Second Advent: that "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Shouldn't we listen to God, rather than (wo)man?

///


James,

Adventists, as has already been demonstrated in this thread, generally apply Matthew 24:36 to the Second Coming, and not, as you saw me apply it, to the close of probation. If my post were not sufficiently clear on that, I hope you will understand it now.

Regarding the other statements you brought forward, let me clarify their meaning as well. There are two comings of Christ spoken of in the New Testament: His coming in judgment, and His coming in glory. The first of these is that as a thief--no one will know when He thus comes. It is probation's close. But the second coming is that in which every eye will see Him. His coming with the sound of a trumpet cannot be likened to the coming of a thief--for thieves do not trumpet their arrival.

Note that those verses, Matthew 24:42-44, come just after several verses in which it is said that some will be taken and others left. What do those terms mean? You will find out when you study the original Greek behind them: paralambano and aphiemi. The latter means forgiven. I do not wish to be taken by the deceits of the devil. I want to be left among the remnant of God's people who are forgiven. Neither of these groups, the taken nor the left, is formed at the Second Coming. These refer to a prior coming--the coming in judgment. The context of the entire passage, Matthew 24:28-44, is that of the time of judgment and the close of probation.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: dedication] #183402
04/22/17 12:38 AM
04/22/17 12:38 AM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Prophetic Time is always fulfilled in literal time. Prophetic time doesn't become some mythical unreality just because it was originally stated in encrypted language.
You can't divorce prophetic time from literal time without doing serious damage to the prophetic foundation of truth.
All the prophetic time lines were fulfilled in literal time, with calendar dates....


It looks like you are comparing apples to oranges when you are trying to put my words into a setting that I have not set them.

Daniel 8:14 was the prophecy of the 2300 days. It was fulfilled as 2300 years. That is not literal time... a day for a day, but it is long time where a day symbolizes a year. After 1844 the time prophecies in Revelation are to be fulfilled in literal time (a day for a day) not long time a day for a year.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: His child] #183404
04/22/17 01:10 AM
04/22/17 01:10 AM
J
Josh M  Offline
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Regular Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: dedication
Prophetic Time is always fulfilled in literal time. Prophetic time doesn't become some mythical unreality just because it was originally stated in encrypted language.
You can't divorce prophetic time from literal time without doing serious damage to the prophetic foundation of truth.
All the prophetic time lines were fulfilled in literal time, with calendar dates....


It looks like you are comparing apples to oranges when you are trying to put my words into a setting that I have not set them.

Daniel 8:14 was the prophecy of the 2300 days. It was fulfilled as 2300 years. That is not literal time... a day for a day, but it is long time where a day symbolizes a year. After 1844 the time prophecies in Revelation are to be fulfilled in literal time (a day for a day) not long time a day for a year.


But you are applying long time to the prophecies of Revelation in the present day, and in two ways- your interpretation of a day standing for 1000 years in order to interpret an hour as 83 years and 4 months.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: kland] #183405
04/22/17 01:18 AM
04/22/17 01:18 AM
His child  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
3) When the prophecy in Daniel 7 is used to interpret itself the meaning is not the same as when Heaven's interpretation is used to interpret it.


Originally Posted By: kland
I don't understand, why are you saying Daniel 7 is not Heaven's interpretation? Or are you saying YOU are 'Heaven's Interpretation'?


Is the obvious not so obvious?
Daniel saw beasts arise from the SEA (7:1-3). Bible study teaches us that the sea is water and water is people, etc. (cf Revelation 17:15) Thus the vision of the sea beasts interprets itself. So why does Heaven need to give an interpretation?

But in Daniel 7:17 Heaven's interpretation is..."These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." When Heaven's interpretation is compared to Scripture, the power that arises to the earth is the USA. But instead of going with Heaven's interpretation of Daniel, Heaven's interpretation is set aside in favor of man's interpretation.

Heaven is not saying that the sea is the earth. Man's understanding of the vision is the historical meaning. And Heaven's interpretation of the vision is the meaning that applies to the endtime when Daniel is standing in his lot.

If you take the time to study Daniel's vision and the interpretation you might notice that the interpretation expands the vision. No where in the vision did Daniel mention brass nails, but when the interpretation is introduced, this feature is added for clarification.

And Daniel 12 states that the BOOK of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end. The translators fulfilled God's word by mistranslating the Hebrew word that they render kingdom in 7:23. Immediately after Heaven declares that they are 4 KINGS the translators changed them back into the KINGDOMS that they understood rather than accepting Heaven's interpretation.

Quote:
As I studied this I went with the Ancient Babylonian calendar (New Year's Day 28 March 2017)
Originally Posted By: kland
Again, besides all the other errors, this is absolutely wrong! You have yet to show the Ancient Babylonian year would start on 28 March 2017.

And I doubt you will, can, nor even understand the objection.


From my study, that is how I understand it. And New Year's Day on the Hebrew calendar was on 28 March 2017 this year (Nissan 1). It is interesting that New Year's Day on the ancient Babylonian calendar just happened to correlate with New Year's Day the Hebrew Calendar this year.

When does your study indicate that ancient Babylon's New Year's Day occurs on our Gregorian Calendar?


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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