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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Josh M] #183406
04/22/17 02:44 AM
04/22/17 02:44 AM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Josh M
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: dedication
Prophetic Time is always fulfilled in literal time. Prophetic time doesn't become some mythical unreality just because it was originally stated in encrypted language.
You can't divorce prophetic time from literal time without doing serious damage to the prophetic foundation of truth.
All the prophetic time lines were fulfilled in literal time, with calendar dates....


It looks like you are comparing apples to oranges when you are trying to put my words into a setting that I have not set them.

Daniel 8:14 was the prophecy of the 2300 days. It was fulfilled as 2300 years. That is not literal time... a day for a day, but it is long time where a day symbolizes a year. After 1844 the time prophecies in Revelation are to be fulfilled in literal time (a day for a day) not long time a day for a year.


But you are applying long time to the prophecies of Revelation in the present day, and in two ways- your interpretation of a day standing for 1000 years in order to interpret an hour as 83 years and 4 months.


This is an excellent point. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Time prophecies are not created in a one size fits all fashion.

Allow me to restate my position: Daniel 8:14 was the prophecy of the 2300 days. It was fulfilled as 2300 years. That is not literal time... a day for a day, but it is long time where a day symbolizes a year. After 1844 the time prophecies in Revelation are generally fulfilled in literal time (a day for a day) not long time a day for a year depending on their context.

As you rightly pointed out, I had forgotten about the Judgment Hour that cannot be in literal time and since its context is an hour of time relating to the sin problem, a one thousand year day fits the context not literal time.

I really cannot thank you enough for this fact check. I have understood both of these two different views of time, but I never realized that these were in conflict and needed more clarification until you posed the question.

That is how studying together can keep us from going astray as it can happen if we go it alone.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Green Cochoa] #183407
04/22/17 02:48 AM
04/22/17 02:48 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Adventists, as has already been demonstrated in this thread, generally apply Matthew 24:36 to the Second Coming, and not, as you saw me apply it, to the close of probation. If my post were not sufficiently clear on that, I hope you will understand it now.

Regarding the other statements you brought forward, let me clarify their meaning as well. There are two comings of Christ spoken of in the New Testament: His coming in judgment, and His coming in glory. The first of these is that as a thief--no one will know when He thus comes. It is probation's close. But the second coming is that in which every eye will see Him. His coming with the sound of a trumpet cannot be likened to the coming of a thief--for thieves do not trumpet their arrival.

Note that those verses, Matthew 24:42-44, come just after several verses in which it is said that some will be taken and others left. What do those terms mean? You will find out when you study the original Greek behind them: paralambano and aphiemi. The latter means forgiven. I do not wish to be taken by the deceits of the devil. I want to be left among the remnant of God's people who are forgiven. Neither of these groups, the taken nor the left, is formed at the Second Coming. These refer to a prior coming--the coming in judgment. The context of the entire passage, Matthew 24:28-44, is that of the time of judgment and the close of probation.


SDA teach the doctrine of probation. The doctrine is irrelevant to the gospel.

There is no such thing as "two dates of Coming". The Second Advent is the return of Jesus Christ in glory.

1. To those who watch (who live godly lives in hope of salvation) He comes suddenly, unexpectedly but His advent to them is as a friend's, a pleasant surprise, a source of great joy, BUT ...

2. To those NOT living for Him, He comes suddenly, unexpectedly as a thief to plunder them.

See Mat. 24:45-51

///

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: dedication] #183411
04/22/17 12:24 PM
04/22/17 12:24 PM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
...

The third angel's message is not about who will be president at a certain date. Christ's coming is NOT based on who is president.

The signs of Christ's soon coming are all around --
Those signs only get dimmed with all this speculation and reinterpreting the prophecies. Truth is even lost sight of in the muddle of insisting certain time periods or certain presidents must be in office for Christ to come...


Quote:
This is our work. The light that we have upon the third angel's message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll; but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord's command to His servants is, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Isaiah 58:1. A message that will arouse the churches is to be proclaimed. Every effort is to be made to give the light, not only to our people, but to the world. I have been instructed that the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation should be printed in small books, with the necessary explanations, and should be sent all over the world. Our own people need to have the light placed before them in clearer lines. {CH 520.3}


Quote:
The third angel's message is the gospel message for these last days, and in no case is it to be overshadowed by other interests and made to appear an unessential consideration.--Testimonies, vol. 6, pp. 235-241. (1900)


Quote:
The third angel's message is to be given with power. The power of the proclamation of the first and second messages is to be intensified in the third. In the Revelation John says of the heavenly messenger who unites with the third angel: "I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice.'' Revelation 18:1, 2. We are in danger of giving the third angel's message in so indefinite a manner that it does not impress the people. So many other interests are brought in that the very message which should be proclaimed with power becomes tame and voiceless. At our camp meetings a mistake has been made. The Sabbath question has been touched upon, but has not been presented as the great test for this time. While the churches profess to believe in Christ, they are violating the law which Christ Himself proclaimed from Sinai. The Lord bids us: "Show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.'' Isaiah 58:1. The trumpet is to give a certain sound. {6T 60.1}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: APL] #183412
04/22/17 12:26 PM
04/22/17 12:26 PM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
TIME-SETTING LEADS TO UNBELIEF ...


Do you see a difference between setting time for Christ's second coming and understanding the time prophecies that are revealed between 1844 and Christ's second coming?


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: The Wanderer] #183413
04/22/17 12:30 PM
04/22/17 12:30 PM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: His child
This is the shaking time when Bible students will be divided from others who do not study as they ought.

The testimonies tell us that some things will have a final or complete fulfillment, but not everyone will understand or accept the Present Truth when it is upon us.
These are adhominem arguments of personally rationalized doctrines. Adhominem indicates "Appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason)," while "rationalize" portrays one who "Defends, explains, clears away, or make excuses for by reasoning," yet not usually based on facts, or, the full story.

No One Knows That Day and Hour

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

There simply is no way to change the meaning of this and other clear Bible texts which tell us the opposite of your many partial quotes strung together to appear as facts, which are not true.


I read this a couple times, but I didn't have time to look up the meaning of the big words you used. So I don't have a clue to what you are trying to say.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: kland] #183414
04/22/17 12:34 PM
04/22/17 12:34 PM
His child  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
They look upon the failures of the time-setters with disgust,

Yep.


It looks like you are endorsing the world's view that all prophetic time is the same thing.

EGW differentiated between time prophecies that are definite and not mystical and unintelligible and prophetic time for the Day and hour of Christ's appearing. You would be blessed to study this more in depth.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: His child] #183415
04/22/17 04:39 PM
04/22/17 04:39 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: His child
This is the shaking time when Bible students will be divided from others who do not study as they ought.

The testimonies tell us that some things will have a final or complete fulfillment, but not everyone will understand or accept the Present Truth when it is upon us.
These are adhominem arguments of personally rationalized doctrines. Adhominem indicates "Appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason)," while "rationalize" portrays one who "Defends, explains, clears away, or make excuses for by reasoning," yet not usually based on facts, or, the full story.

No One Knows That Day and Hour

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

There simply is no way to change the meaning of this and other clear Bible texts which tell us the opposite of your many partial quotes strung together to appear as facts, which are not true.
I read this a couple times, but I didn't have time to look up the meaning of the big words you used. So I don't have a clue to what you are trying to say.
I am pretty sure you understood the latter half of my post. Its not complicated. Just a simple quote from Scripture. The word "admominem" simply means something true that is used to "prove" something that is not true.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: The Wanderer] #183418
04/23/17 02:18 AM
04/23/17 02:18 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,648
Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer

The word "admominem" simply means something true that is used to "prove" something that is not true.


I'm not quite sure "admominem" or "adhominem" is the right word, but the definition precisely summarizes HC's speculative conclusions and reinterpretations of prophecy!

Yes, he takes what is true --
the truth that we are living in the very last of earth's history, and then making it all confusing by reinterpreting the prophecies that made it true, to say something else, and adding speculative data that casts contempt upon the very truths that need to be proclaimed.


When we simply take the testimonies as they were written --
and cast away all this reinterpretation and speculating,
we find prediction after prediction that has been fulfilled in the last few years.
Anyone reading the testimonies on endtime events as they are written, is simply overwhelmed by the way things are being so rapidly fulfilled.

There is absolutely NO NEED, to be muddying the message with a bunch of speculative data that continually is false and needs changing, and is in all verity the opposite of proclaiming the truth for this time.


Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: dedication] #183428
04/24/17 05:20 AM
04/24/17 05:20 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
I mis-spelled the word a couple of times above. It should read "adhominem" as in adhominem arguments.

An example would be where someone says that people will "be lost" if they do not accept "truth," and the inference being that ANYTHING the person in question says is truth, and to reject what they say is to be "lost." Certainly, we are seeing this happen. It is true that people will be "lost" if they reject plain truth, but it does not follow that everything so and so says is "truth."


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Green Cochoa] #183429
04/24/17 09:03 AM
04/24/17 09:03 AM
His child  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: His child

5) The Ram in Daniel 8 has 2 horns. The first is Bush I and the second is Bush II who came up last. And the she/he goat is Bill and Hilary Clinton. The broken horn is Bill Clinton who trampled Bush I and Hilary trampled Bush II. The notable one is Colon Powell from which Bush II and Barack Obama were propelled to be President. Obama is the little horn that magnifies himself.


The above interpretation comes only through a rejection of what Mrs. White tells us.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
“And he had two horns like a lamb.” The lamb-like horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as “coming up” in 1798. The Christian exiles who first fled to America, sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance, and they determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. The Declaration of Independence sets forth the great truth that “all men are created equal,” and endowed with the inalienable right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and down-trodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC88 441.1}

But the beast with lamb-like horns “spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, . . . saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.” [Revelation 13:11-14.] {GC88 441.2}

The lamb-like horns and dragon voice of the symbol point to a striking contradiction between the professions and the practice of the nation thus represented. The “speaking” of the nation is the action of its legislative and judicial authorities. By such action it will give the lie to those liberal and peaceful principles which it has put forth as the foundation of its policy. The prediction that it will speak “as a dragon,” and exercise “all the power of the first beast,” plainly foretells a development of the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented by the dragon and the leopard-like beast. And the statement that the beast with two horns “causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,” indicates that the authority of this nation is to be exercised in enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to the papacy. {GC88 442.1}

Such action would be directly contrary to the principles of this government, to the genius of its free institutions, to the direct and solemn avowals of the Declaration of Independence, and to the Constitution. The founders of the nation wisely sought to guard against the employment of secular power on the part of the church, with its inevitable result—intolerance and persecution. The Constitution provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” and that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office of public trust under the United States.” Only in flagrant violation of these safeguards to the nation's liberty, can any religious observance be enforced by civil authority. But the inconsistency of such action is no greater than is represented in the symbol. It is the beast with lamb-like horns—in profession pure, gentle, and harmless— that speaks as a dragon. {GC88 442.2}


Careful readers of the above will note that the two principles that give the beast its power are: Republicanism and Protestantism. These two principles come from the constitutional guarantee of the right of self-government, with people having elected representatives to enact and administer laws, and from the freedom of religion. These two things give America its power. Horns represent power in Scripture, just as wings represent speed, etc. America has had its power since its inception. Mrs. White speaks of its rise in 1798. Bush I and Bush II were not on the scene at that time.



Green,
Careful readers or the Bible and Spirit of prophecy will not contradict the Scriptures with statements from the Spirit of Prophecy. Regarding your presentation, I will agree with you "The above interpretation [that you suggest] comes only through a rejection of what Mrs. White tells us."

The Scriptures clearly explain the symbolic horns used in Bible prophecy. They depict kings.

Quote:
Da 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Quote:
Da 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Quote:
Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


To miss-use or miss-reading of the Spirit of Prophecy to change the Bible is a gross error. The Bible states that the horns are kings which are men. The Spirit of prophecy does not contradict the Scriptures but clearly explains the CHARACTERISTICS or TRAITS of the horns [men] that are identified through Bible study.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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