Perhaps start another thread...

Let's stick to what scripture says and not confuse the issue with our limited opinions or others opinions & interpretations. Our perception of what we think what is and what is not is most likely delusional. Only scriptures can define what is and what is not correctly. We are to submit our perception to the expressed word of God and not vice versa. I rather rely on what scriptures says if you don't mind.

That the judgment [the IJ] began in 1844.

Daniel is NOT talking about sacrifices here, he is talking about evening and morning DAYS.

The Bible tells us that evening/mornings are DAYS. Therefore the translation:
8.14
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. This is in agreement with Biblical usage of the term. EVENING/MORNING = 1 day.

The evening and the morning were the first day
The evening and the morning were the second day
The evening and the morning were the third day
ETC. (Gen. 1)

You will notice that when the Bible uses evening/morning it is speaking of days.

So how to we arrive at that date -- 1844


Daniel 9 details the point in Persian history is linked to a certain decree being issued for the restoration of Jerusalem).
Thus the 2300 years takes us to a point in the 1800's.

So when did the vision begin?
457 BC plus 2300 years takes us to 1843.
Add the missing year 9 which isn't counted in the dating scheme and you come to 1844.

Say what? Really? Then what is the point of studying the Bible, or even discussion of the conclusions we come to or what ideas we hold, if what everyone thinks is most likely delusional?

I'm sorry, but I find that so off-the-wall that it just flabbergasts me. You have opinions of a spiritual nature, but even you think your own opinions formed by your own Bible study are delusional? And this in response to questions as to how you view the world around you in spiritual terms, and what you think of a specific Biblical passage--the devil's temptation of Eve?

If this is really how you view things I don't know how I can have a rational discussion with you as you yourself think your opinions of scriptural concepts are delusional.

So then, these "days" (evening and morning) now become "years" according to the day/year principle. Which then brings up the clarification of the "days" (evening/morning) of creation. Were these literal 24 hour periods, or did each "evening/morning" represent a year?





So it seems you have linked the vision in Daniel 8 and the 2300 days there, (which is not given a start date), with the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, which has a start date of "the command to restore Jerusalem."

I see this association as weak and unsupported given the number of assumptions needed for it to work:

1. The explanation talks about the vision of Daniel 8, despite the fact that it comes 11 years after the vision.
2. Daniel 8 and 9 are related and refer to the same vision.
3. The elaborate explanation that the 70 weeks are part of the 2300 days based on "determined" meaning "cut off." This, although allowed, is not the primary meaning of the Hebrew.

Since the angel Gabriel specifically states WHAT starts at the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, I find it unjustified to assign that start date to another time prophecy on such shaky support.

So I do not see the validity of a 457 BCE start date for the 2300 day prophecy.

Say what? Really? Then what is the point of studying the Bible, or even discussion of the conclusions we come to or what ideas we hold, if what everyone thinks is most likely delusional?

I'm sorry, but I find that so off-the-wall that it just flabbergasts me. You have opinions of a spiritual nature, but even you think your own opinions formed by your own Bible study are delusional? And this in response to questions as to how you view the world around you in spiritual terms, and what you think of a specific Biblical passage--the devil's temptation of Eve?

If this is really how you view things I don't know how I can have a rational discussion with you as you yourself think your opinions of scriptural concepts are delusional.

Nadi,

I went back and looked at that thread. Sorry, I wasn't trying to derail it for you. I had only meant what I said as an aside to the discussion.

I think your view vs the SDA view boils down to a basic difference in how the plan of salvation is viewed. In the historic SDA view God is as much on trial before the universe as we are on trial before God. Why? Because God's character was attacked by the devil and 1/3 of the angels and the human race accepted the lie about who God really is and what is He really like.

The devil is the universe's, not just this world's, greatest scam artist. His powers of deceit are immense and as God wants to wipe out sin completely, and sin is simply not trusting God, then God has to have a way of convincing everyone that He is just. Revelation 14:7 occurs before the 2nd coming and yet it says that the "hour of His judgment is come". Hour of whose judgment? God's. The "hour" of our judgment--our reading of the books and investigating the lives of those who made it to heaven and those who didn't comes after the 2nd coming. We simply verify through the meticulous record keeping of God that God has always been just, fair, and righteous.

The entire plan of salvation is the story of the war--the great controversy--between God and the devil. If someone rejects that paradigm then they will never accept the SDA point of view. They cannot because it cuts the foundation of their beliefs off at the knees. Only if a person is willing to look at the entire Bible through this paradigm, and the Bible supports this paradigm from Genesis to Revelation, can SDA theology be really understood and accepted.

This is why SDA theology is so distinctive. No other church accepts the paradigm of the great controversy between good and evil. I don't know why as the evidence for this paradigm surrounds us daily. There is always a struggle between good and evil and it is constant and ongoing. To me it is the greatest evidence that the SDA theology on this is correct. And, it is also the only paradigm that, to me, makes sense out of our completely out of control and insane world.

In regards to Gary K post above, like Nadi correctly quoted before "YOUR saying so don't make it so." Tom Sawyer.

We should be able to support from scriptures our beliefs.

Please provide Biblical support that God is on trial.

Please provide Biblical support for that.

Here's a short respond of what I see what scripture is saying about the question of evil.

1. According to Is 45:7 God says He created evil

2. In Lev 26 we have very explicit repeated language that The Lord is the one that brings unto us "evil" in the form of all those calamities listed in that chapter.

3. Any immature children being corrected perceived their parent's judgment as "evil" or unfair. It's only when we grow that our childhood perception of our parents comes to change.

4. Us as Christians we often mistakenly perceived God's judgments and disciplines as coming from the devil. However, it is the Lord that brings all these judgments and events in our lives. Not the devil.(Heb 12:1-17; Ep 1:11)

5. Also the Lord's judgments and disciplines are always correctional in the aim to restore the individual and are never punitive nor have a "forever" destruction end. (Is 26:9,10..study the Hebrew & Greek word definition of "forever")

6. The scripture doesn't say it's Satan or the devil that brings evils. God may use Satan to bring about some "evil" --calamities to bring us to a higher spiritual plane like we see in the story of Job who did nothing wrong. Or when the Lord used King Nebuchadnezzar and called him "my servant" to bring on COI (the Church) some form of judgment for things the Church did do wrong. But in both of these situation, it is the Lord that initiated these decision and judgments...not Satan.

We read in Job 42:11 "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold."

7. Satan is an accuser of the brethren. Yes. That's his job. And he's a deceiver that will deceive us into doing lawlessness. But it is the Lord that brings on all judgment on His own timing when we (as individuals or as a nation) break the law. Not Satan. And it's only when God brings on judgment that we experience this "evilness" in our life that it's purpose is to correct us. (Lot's of scriptures saying God brought judgment...but I don't know of any text where Satan brought judgment. show me some if you know of some).

Your reasoning is what is shaky.

We know from Daniel 8:16 that Gabriel was the angel that brought the interpretation of Daniel 8 to Daniel. This interpretation was not completed because Daniel fainted. Daniel 8:27

In Daniel 9:21 Daniel is the one who says this same Gabriel was the one who was "in the vision at the beginning"! Referring to the vision in chapter 8. This is obvious since there isn't a vision in Daniel chapter 9. So, there isn't any assumption on this point. You will find the same thing in Daniel chapter 11 as well. All this is interpreting Daniel chapter 8.

Gary, I also think that Elle's theology is highly suspect, and I have indicated this to her. She makes "laws" and "principles of interpretation" and other such things that I find unwarranted.

HOWEVER

1. Elle ALWAYS responds in a kind and Christ-like manner, and is always willing to admit that perhaps she didn't understand well or explain herself well. This is far more "Christian" than the responses of some others on this forum who may or may not have (in their opinion) more "correct" theology.

2. I always read all of her posts, because:
a. She will always make you think.
b. If you only read stuff you agree with, you will never challenge your beliefs.