I read your convoluted post that grasped at straws and twisted my words.

From my study, Babylon's New Year was around 28 March on our Gregorian Calendar. I used that information in my calculation of Pope Benedict's resignation and it held up. This year that was also the day for the Jewish New Year. If you have a source to give me a more reliable date, I would be glad to consider it. But I'm not going to parley with you.

Green,

Too many errors to correct in one post.

The Bible interprets itself. Horns are kings. I gave you the texts. But you goo back to tradition to make your case. Show me the texts where they are "powers"

The Bible says kings and EGW gives their characteristics and traits. Don't mix apples and oranges.

The Bible says kings are rulers. America's Presidents are rulers.

Good luck with your study of Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek. The alpha is A and the omega is W in Greek.

There are people who cherish error and bind themselves with others of like mind. We must beware of that association. It is not wholesome.

The Bible interprets itself in Daniel 7 to state that powers described in DAniel 7:17 are the kings from the earth. Revelation 13 explains the earth as relating to the US and Chronicles explains that a king is a ruler. America's rulers are Presidents. To deny that is not sound Bible study.

You can use the vision or its interpretation in Daniel 7 to explain the vision in Daniel 7. The correct methodology will give the correct understanding. The wrong methodology will give the wrong understanding. But you blanket statement is only an attempt to justify the position that you prefer. It is biased by your attempt to make the Bible say what you believe rather than a willingness to believe what the Bible says.

The facts are that Daniel 7 is a vision and an interpretation. The interpretation specifically states that it is about earth kings. Those are the facts that you are reinterpreting to make the Bible say what you believe rather than accepting a clear thus saith the Lord.

I expected a more reasoned response from you and am greatly disappointed by the sloppy scholarship in your response.

Brother Peterson.

I understand Daniel 2 to have a past fulfillment. King Nebuchadnezzar through Kings Nabonidus and Belshazzar (the iron legs that extended into the feet). Thus the crushing of the image by King Cyrus fulfilled the prophecy, but it was a partial fulfillment and did not meet all of the criteria within the prophecy.

Likewise when Daniel 7 expanded the meaning of Daniel 2 the kingdom meaning was a partial fulfillment and did not meet all of the criteria within the prophecy BUT it fulfilled the prophecy more completely.

a) In the days of these kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever: inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. (Dan. 2:44-45)

In the endtime these kings are Reagan, who is the head of gold, Bush I the silver, Clinton the brass midsection, and Bush II and Obama are the legs of iron that flow into the feet ...the ten toes are the 10 parts of the Eastern Roman Empire (the three Islamic kingdoms that are plucked up are Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran). Then Christ will Come and smash the image on its feet and break all the metals together, which could not happen to the kingdoms of Babylon thru papal Rome that partially fulfilled the prophecy because they did not all exist together at the same time. And Daniel 8 shows that Reagan is not alive when that happens since it starts with Bush II and flows through Obama.

When Christ's Second Advent occurs:

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Mat. 13:41-43)

I understand how your objection to my statement was formed from Bible study. Thank you for sharing

Do you like to "parley" or what? What are you arguing over. I agreed with you on that part by showing you the quote and only asked you a question:

So, if it starts at the first crescent, why would it not ALWAYS
correlate with New Year's Day of the Hebrew Calendar each and every year? At least according to how some neo-Jews start their year? When do you say the Hebrew Calendar starts, whether of Biblical or Heaven's interpretation or man's?

Yes, it appears like a "W" in "Greek". But what is omega in Latin/English?

You might want to check this out--and in case the image does not show well here, you can find it at http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/alphabet_chart.gif.

1. Biblical prophecies do not have partial fulfillment. They mean something definite in specific places at specific moments for specific times. When Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he was that head of gold, Nebuchadnezzar (and not Julius Caesar, Abraham Lincoln or Ronald Reagan) was that head of gold.
   
   If the entire prophecy was not realized during its stated particular time (considering the whole duration of the prophecy) then that prophecy had not been fulfilled as yet. God does not play dice with His word so that it may mean random things. He holds himself accountable to His own plan. He may change His plan (but that is another matter entirely).
    
2. After Jesus rose from the dead, he said to his disciples, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations ... and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Mat. 28:18-20) Do you remember what he said after he had asked the disciples what they thought of him and Peter had said, "YOU are the Christ, the Son of the Living God"? Surely you must remember his assurance that, "... on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Mat. 16:18)
   
   The stone cut out without hands is the kingdom of heaven which was destined to fill the whole earth as it is today. The warfare and spectacular victories of THAT kingdom are not written in the death of men on bloody battlefields amidst the terror of smoke and fire, but in the rebirth of heathens to hope of everlasting life in Christ, the Saviour of the World a.

---------------

a EPHESIANS 6:10-20

• Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
   
• Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints —
   
• and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

WHAT A GLORIOUS ANTHEM!!!

cf. Rev. 5:8-14

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg5qDljEw7Q

///

Daniel 2 spans time from Daniel's time until the end -- thus it has only one fulfillment that outlines the whole history.

head of gold -- Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon representing the Babylonian kingdom.
chest of silver -- the Medes and Persians conquer Babylon.
thighs of brass -- the Greeks conquer the Persians
the legs of iron -- Rome
the mixed feet and toes -- the divisions of the empire into various sovereign nations, yet the iron of Rome still mingled in them.

The stone -- Christ is that stone.
When He comes all the former kingdoms will be smashed.

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for the.
"it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,


Yet the kingdom that shall never be destroyed is not set up nor does it fill the earth UNTIL after the 1000 years. After the lake of fire has burned up all results of sin. And God creates a new heaven and earth.

If Christ sets up a kingdom that fills this whole present world prior to the 1000 years -- that kingdom would be destroyed at the end of the 1000 years, for we see the wicked have control of the whole earth, except for the holy city.

That can't be -- when the stone of Christ's kingdom fills the whole earth it is a kingdom that will last forever.

It does not sound like there is a kingdom of righteousness filling the whole earth in Rev. 20. A massive destructive fire cleans up the earth at that point. It's not till Rev. 21 that we see the righteous kingdom filling the whole earth.

In other words, you are agreeing with me that the stone represented THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and not Christ. You say plainly:

• "IT (not HE, but IT -- the kingdom of heaven) shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms ..."
   
• "Yet IT (not HE, but IT -- the kingdom) that shall never be destroyed ..."
   
• "that we see IT (not HE, but IT -- the righteous kingdom) filling the whole earth"

We live in (IT, not HE but IT) that Kingdom that is growing to fill the whole earth even now. It is called the Church c. Thank you.

----------

By the way, the two legs are (NOT Rome, but):

1. the Kingdom of the North, and
2. the Kingdom of the South

of the divided Greek Empire of Alexander the Great.

The Angel of God (the TRUE Spirit of Prophecy) says so. See Dan. 11:2-16.


______________________

c Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you (i.e. in your midst)." (Luke 17:20-21)


///

Though I agreed with you that Daniel 2 has but one fulfillment, I do not agree that "the stone kingdom" is the church.

The image represents the literal kingdoms of man.

While it is true when we read Jesus' teachings concerning the 'kingdom of God/heaven' He is dealing much more with the spiritual renewal in individual lives of believers, than with a literal kingdom to come.
However we must be careful NOT TO CONFUSE THE TWO.

There is the spiritual kingdom that takes root in people's lives.
There is also the literal glorious kingdom we read about in Revelation 21-22.

Daniel two is speaking of literal kingdoms, not spiritual kingdoms.
The image represents literal political kingdoms that rule over the earth throughout the history of this world.
Thus it is only after those kingdoms are smashed, that the literal kingdom of Christ will be set up.


And no, the kingdoms of man do not end with the "divided kingdoms Greece resulting after the death of Alexander".

The kingdoms of man continue until they are smashed and utterly blown away by the coming of the "stone". Only AFTER this occurs will the "stone" fill the entire earth.

The iron legs represent ROME --

"And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others."

Were the "kings of the north and south" strong as iron smashing all the other kingdoms? No, they were not, they simply divided up Alexander's conquests. True the Seleucids tried to get all of Alexander's empire reducing the four divisions into mainly two, but they never fully succeeded and were finally crushed by Rome, as was the king of the south. The kings of the north and south were both part of the Greek empire -- they did not create a "new empire" nor merit a "new metal".

Just like in Daniel 7, the four headed leopard was one symbol representing the Greek Empire both under Alexander and it's divided state, so the brass thighs of the image represent the entire Grecian empire.

Rome conquered all the headquarters of the previous empires (Babylon, Persia, Greek) plus more. They ruled supreme for more than 400 years, and ended up thoroughly crushing the "holy land" and Jerusalem as well.

One of the reasons theologians like to remove Rome from the outline of earth's history is because of the state supported "kingdom" theory.

Ancient historians like Eusebius seemed positively sure that Rome, and men like Constantine, were God's agent to bring in the "kingdom of God" on earth.

Eusebius in writing about his friend, emperor Constantine and his new church-state policies, affirmed these Church-State relationship in glowing terms.
It didn't seem to matter to him that the new Church-State relationship was antagonistic to the expected kingdom of God that had been proclaimed by the apostles.
In the new relationship, the Church would establish the kingdom of God through the support of the State. (That being Rome)
Once this new idea was accepted, it became necessary to change the expectation of what the kingdom of God would be.

That the "church" is the kingdom of God is a strong Catholic teaching, and their view is that the church (that is the Roman Catholic Church) will prevail over all the earth.


The idea of the Catholic Church going through a great Chastisement and emerging purified and establishing an "Era of Peace" -- with the righteous reigning over the earth for 1000 years, is also found in Catholic writings.


True,when we read Jesus' teachings concerning the 'kingdom of God' it is dealing much more with the spiritual renewal in individual lives of believers. That is, the principles of God's kingdom must take hold in a Christians life to prepare them for the glorious literal kingdom to come.

BUT we must not confuse the two. Let's remember the spiritual kingdom is NOT a government type kingdom, but something with the hearts and minds of the believers.
Yet scripture and Early Christians expected the establishment of a literal glorious kingdom of God to come with the return of Jesus at the end of the age. Yes, they also understood that there was a sense and a reality in which the kingdom of God was already present, but the fulfillment of glorious kingdom would only come after the judgment and the destruction of the kingdoms of this world.

But gradually the paradigm shifted to the idea that the church would bring in the kingdom of God, with help from the state, -- in the sense of converting the populations of earth and bringing in a era of peace.

This philosophy is very old,
it was very prevalent in the years when the Advent movement emerged.
It was point of serious study and resulted in the Millerite movement rejection of the "age to come" theory and the acceptance that Christ's second coming would smash all the kingdoms of the world and the redeemed would ascend to heaven to heaven with Christ for 1000 years.

Those who listen to the "Testimonies by EGW will reject the "age to come" theory.

Those testimonies warn against being deceived by the "age to come".


Will we reject them and listen to the testimonies of ancient church father's in their place? Or will we accept the Testimonies given to EGW? That's actually the topic of this thread.