The question is not what does the SDA church believe and teach, but rather what does the prophecy mean?

If the endtime meaning of the beasts in Daniel 7 are identified in by Heaven's interpretation as given in 7:17 as "earth beasts" that do in fact signify "American Presidents", then that is a significant fact that the SDA church is obligated to recognize and to teach if it wants to correctly understand and teach the meaning of Bible prophecy.

Truth will constantly unfold until Christ Comes and it behooves all SDA's to understand the Present Truth of the hour and to teach it correctly. There is no merit in teaching error.

It is not good to repeat 1888 when individuals taught the correct view (of righteousness by faith) while the "church" rejected truth and clung to an incorrect view. This is not rocket science, it is Bible study based on a clear thus saith the LORD.

No -- heaven's interpretation does not say they are "earth beasts".

The interpretation says the sea beasts which arise from the sea represents literal kingdoms that arise on earth.

SYMBOLS = four beasts from sea
INTERPRETION = four kingdoms on land

You will remember that four great beasts are seen by the prophet, coming up out of the sea, rising from the commotions of the winds—the four winds striving upon the great sea. And when Daniel had described these as he saw them, the angel of God came to tell him what it all meant. And the angel, describing the whole scene, did NOT introduce new symbols -- no, the angel explains what the previous symbols mean by saying: "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings [kingdoms, nations, powers], which shall arise out of the earth.

It's talking ABOUT THE SAME THING --
Basically
A LION arises out wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Babylon fighting it's way to establish its kingdom on earth.

A Bear arises out of wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Media Persian fighting it's way to establish its kingdom on earth.

A Leopard arises out of the wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Grecia fighting its way to establish a kingdom on earth.

Terrible Beast arises out of the wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Rome fighting its way to establish its kingdom on earth.








Not at all -- those beasts are NOT presidents, they represent
LION from sea = Babylonian kingdom on earth
Bear from sea = Media Persian kingdom on earth
Leopard from sea = Grecian kingdom on earth
Terrible Beast from sea = Roman power on earth

This has NOTHING to do with presidents.
Beasts represent KINGDOMS, EMPIRES, not presidents.

One does not take the interpretation of a symbol and turn the interpretation into a new symbol.

That's like saying
When the angel in Rev. 17 says the waters represent people and nations, that means we must now regard people and nations as a new symbol and make a new interpretation for that. No -- the interpretation is the meaning of the previous symbol, not a new symbol.




If the church started teaching your way of doing prophecy it would lose all credibility.

The prophetic outline as it is rightly understood by the church has convinced multitudes of the accuracy of the Bible -- the inspiration of the Bible.
Your interpretations have been nothing but speculations that have failed time and time again. It's amazing that you are still persisting that your way is truth -- it confuses truth, and makes a mockery of it.

AMEN!
And I pray that you will one day see the truth in that statement and return to true foundations of prophetic understanding.
For when the foundation is torn up (which your interpretation does) -- truth can no longer progress --

The first beast of Revelation 13, rising out of the sea, is virtually a composite of Daniel seven's four beasts. His body was like that of a leopard, his feet like those of a bear, and his mouth like that of a lion, and "the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Here we see a continuation of Daniel seven's prophetic outline, the ideologies of the previous kingdoms have merged into this beast, which is recognized by many as the Roman power.

The activities of Rev.13's sea beast parallel the activities of the little horn on Daniel 7's terrible beast, thus it indicates history's advance into Rome's papal phase.
This is further supported by it's emphases on "worship" as this beast is very focused on "worship", albeit it's counterfeit worship.

The 2nd beast in Rev. 13, (and this one, as opposed to beasts in Daniel, does actually arise from the earth) is called in later visions "the false prophet" (16:13; 19:20; 20:10),
It is "another beast" different from the first, it is NOT the same, it is a different beast, but it is not a competitor of the beast from the sea, at least not in the end, though it's lamb like horns does seem to signify a more Christ-like attitude in the beginning.
Though coming on the scene much later, in the end time it is a contemporary of the first beast.


Thus HC's idea of mixing up the identity of the two beasts is simply confusing things --

This second beast becomes subordinate to the first beast. It's role in the end times is to ensure the first beast receives worship and honor. Everything it does is done under the supervision of the first beast.

This is another point from which HC strays.
There is no room in his presentations of the signs that really fulfill the prophecies!!


The first beast -- Vatican power -- gains control of this 2nd beast -- a powerful nation and this powerful nation (America) will ensure the first beast is worshipped.

The last crises isn't political (though a lot of laws have been passed to remove people's rights already) -- it is religious! When religion takes control of government to enforce religion, for what will be perceived as good reasons -- the crises will hit with overwhelming force.

Now we will see the force of the fearful threatening of the third angel of Revelation 14. The time has at last come for God to reckon with this proud, blasphemous, persecuting power, which for centuries has dared to change his law, to claim divine prerogatives, and to persecute his saints.
God reserved this great crisis till all can know his word, if they desire to do so. God has waited till an age of great light, when all the world can tune in as to what is happening, and decide for or against truth.

The third angel's message isn't about which president -- it is about worship, and righteousness and keeping God's commandments and having an enduring faith that clings to God no matter what.

It's about the Protestant faith going back to Rome and allowing Papal Rome to use their government power to enforce religion -- an apostate religion that sets itself above God and His law, while claiming to serve God.

Quote:

The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902)

In the movements now in progress in the United States to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the state, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for the papacy to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World.--GC 573

God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare {GC88 581.1}

The Spirit of Prophecy links Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.



The symbolic sea and earth are in Revelation 13, BUT though they also appear in Daniel 7, the sea is viewed as symbolic and the earth is viewed as literal. And of course that is incorrect. Because if the sea is symbolic in Daniel 7 and the earth is literal in Daniel 7 then Daniel 7 teaches that the symbolic sea is the literal earth.

If the symbolic sea is the literal earth as it is being supposed in Daniel 7 then the SDA view of the sea and earth is contradicted in Revelation 13. Both chapters deal with the same prophecy and both use sea and earth symbolism. BUT in Daniel sea and earth are being made to be the same thing while in Revelation they are different. As I have said before, sea and earth are both symbolic in Daniel 7 if they are both symbolic in Revelation 13. If they are not both symbolic in Daniel 7, then the view of the symbolic sea as the literal earth in Daniel 7 must also be applied to Revelation 13.

The error is that Revelation is given to expand and explain Daniel and the increased light from Revelation that came at the appointed time is not being allowed to do that which the LORD has ordained that it should do.

Thus there is bickering about things that are plainly settled in Scripture. That is not wise and it is not of God.

HC, if you take your position to its conclusion, don't you have to say Ellen White's historic interpretation is wrong? If what you say is true, that the earth is used as a symbol in Daniel 7, the angel's interpretation is also wrong because he says the four beasts are four kingdoms (translated kings in the KJV) and Ellen White says who the kingdoms are.

But the fact that the beast of Revelation 13 is a composite of Daniel 7 and both deal with the final persecution of the saints does indicate an end-time application to both.

Mark,

Those are good points. Let's look at them.



No. Ellen White was a prophet.





The angel said



What is the fourth malkuw? Is it a kingdom as 7:23 renders it in the KJV? Same book. Same word. Same translators.



What goes better with the context in Heaven's interpretation?



or



Why did the translators choose kingdoms and ignore the context of Heaven's interpretation. Because God ordained that they do it.



Did the use of malkuw as kingdom rather than reign facilitate the sealing of the book until the time of the end. YES That meaning was developed prior to the unsealing of Daniel. The understanding of the 4-kingdoms was as early as the 2nd century AD. Martin Luther understood it in the 1500's. The KJV translation was 1612? and Newton 1627-- all were before the book of Daniel was unsealed and opened.

Why did not Ellen White understand it better?










The composite beast is Reagan (Great Orator=lion's mouth), Bush I (Bear's features), and Clinton (leopard = Brass midsection) as the last 3 of the ten horns/kings (Truman to Clinton) that bonded with the HEALED papal heads/beast (Pope Pius VI received deadly wound 1798) Pope Pius received healing of deadly wound 1929 (Pius head that was wounded was healed). The 7 healed heads were Popes Pius XI to Benedict XVI. And then the prophecy transitioned from the 7th head (Benedict XVI who reigned a short space) to the beast with the 2 lamblike horns (horns depict kings Daniel 8:20) Bush II and Obama.

Ellen White does not contradict the Bible when she discusses the traits or characteristics of the horns (Republicanism and Protestantism, etc). But her discussion of the horns characteristics do not represent the meaning of the symbolic horns to be something other than that which is defined in Scripture. The Greater Light is the standard and the Lesser Light gives insights.

The composite beast of Revelation 13 is papal Rome -- not US presidents.





The composite beast is Papal Rome.
NOT America

Why are you confusing the two symbols in Rev. 13?

The second beast with Lamb like horns is America and once America knocks down the wall of separation between church and state, America will be subordinate to Papal Rome, -- everything it does in the end time is under the supervision of the first beast. It's mission will be to get the world to worship the first beast.

Your statement is not correct.
IF Daniel 7 had a beast emerging from the earth IN THE VISION, then it would be symbolic as the sea is symbolic.

BUT Daniel 7 has beast emerging ONLY from the sea.
The angel comes and says:
BEAST emerging from sea = kingdoms established on earth.

I'm sorry you just can't see the obvious.


That is correct --
The symbolic sea represents nations and people which do NOT live in a literal sea, but on the LITERAL EARTH.



There again you are mistaken --
Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are NOT the same prophecy.
Revelation 13 builds on Daniel 7, but is not the same as Daniel 7.
In John's day, the previous three beasts of Daniel 7 (Babylon, Persia, Greece) have already been absorbed into the Roman beast, this is shown in the composite beast -- so John starts with the Roman beast which was in power in his time, showing it receiving authority from the dragon and moving into its papal phase. That beast remains the papal beast until the end of time.

Then John is shown and thus adds a whole new beast that was NOT yet seen in Daniel 7, but emerges near the end of time and is contemporary with the papal beast in the last days. That "new" beast is NOT the same as the first beast of Revelation 13. It is ANOTHER BEAST, a totally new beast -- a new power emerging near the end of time.

Again to reiterate-- Daniel 7 does NOT use "earth" symbolically.
Earth is only mentioned in the INTERPRETATION, not in the symbolic vision.

Thus there is NO symbolic earth in Daniel 7.
We do not make the interpretation of symbols into new symbols.
Interpretations are interpretations, not new symbols.







True, Revelation expands and adds new information to Daniel's prophecy. The error however comes when you mix up the identity of the two beasts in Revelation 13, basically making both beasts one and the same, and in making interpretations in Daniel seven into symbols.

That error is so obvious in your interpretation, why can't you see it? Pray that God opens your eyes to see the danger.

Why can't you understand, that when an angel interprets a symbol, he is telling us what the symbol means -- he is not giving another totally different symbolic prophecy.

Not only do your ideas turn the interpretation of a symbol into a new symbol, which causes you to even lose the identity of the first beast, but this supposed "new light" has failed so many times it is obvious that it is "darkness", and that it is heavily hiding the truth of the three angel's messages.

In the meantime -- we see America placing itself more and more in subordination to papal control, and we see the papacy gaining remarkable influence in the world -- while on this forum that is being pushed aside, and a non-truth of making Obama the "present truth" is over running the forum.


Those who focus on a specific person as the "KEY" will probably miss the final true fulfillment of prophecy and end being totally surprised when the crises hits, for it will probably come through someone else than the one on their "list". We need to be much wiser and see the events prophesied taking place, and pray that we are following the Lamb fully, then to confuse and speculate on who the specific person will be to push the trigger that starts the crises.

I read your posts with interest, and cringe at how you trample upon Present Truth and turn the eye of the people from an understanding of current events back to that which is but a foreshadowing of last days events.







Be cautious:

As depicted in Revelation 13, it has seven heads.

One of its heads is wounded and healed.



Pius XI was the pope specified in prophecy, which received the healing of the deadly wound.

The seven heads of the papacy depicted in Revelation 13 were Popes: Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI. John-Paul I & II, and Benedict XVI.

The ten horns on the papal composite beast were 10 sitting American Presidents. Revelation 13 gives an identifying feature.



The President that comes from the prophetic earth is Truman and he called fire down from heaven in WWII on Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Beginning with Truman (who was put in office by the Jesuits) the horns on the papal composite beast are Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton.

The composite papal beast under John-Paul II bonded with Reagan (lion's mouth = great orator), Bush I (bear's features), and Clinton (leopard's features) so much so that the beast took on their features. Then John-Paul II completed the fulfillment of the prophecy (he had a deadly wound that was healed, no one could make war with him - communism fell at his bidding without firing a shot, and he died 42-months after 9/11/01). 9/11/01 is identified in Daniel 7.

During the reign of the last pope of the composite papal beast (Benedict XVI) the prophecy transitions to the earth beast. The two horns identified are Bush II and Obama.

Revelation 17 explains that the beast is the papacy. The woman is Apostate Protestantism. And the hour allotted is from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013.



There is no blessing promised for those who deny Present Truth and turn from it into darkness when the light of Heaven is shinning on the pathway to Heaven to prepare a people to meet their God.