Just some comments on Nadi's supplied link to Harold McGregor's article.

McGregor, from what I have found is/was an Adventist who thinks highly of Desmond Ford's teachings and has thus left the Adventist position. That's all the background I could find.

His three main points of contention against the IJ are all subjective and built on personal opinion.

1. Unilateralism— SDAs are the only Christians who hold the investigative judgment to be true. This, in his mind is a big obstacle against it.

The "opinion" this supposed "obstacle" is built on is:
For truth to be truth a majority of Christians must hold to it, this proves it's truthfulness.


Wonder what NOAH would say as the crowd demanded---
Hey Noah, you and perhaps your family are the only ones who hold that a flood is about to come upon the world. There isn't a scientists alive that concurs with your theory. Why it's impossible for water to fall out of the sky and flood the earth, who ever heard of such a thing. None of the religious leaders preach what you preach.
We're going to need a whole lot more serious voices confirming what you preach before we would ever consider locking ourselves up in that boat.

This premise that a teaching needs to be widely accepted within Christianity before it can be truth is a dangerous premise --
Biblical history shows this is rarely the case -- usually there are only a few clinging to truth while the majority have accepted counterfeits.
Revelation quite forcefully illustrates that the whole world (except for a few) will be WORSHIPING a counterfeit. (Rev. 13-14)

2. Divisiveness
Adventist history has several "scholarly" men who rejected it and preached against it.

The "opinion" this supposed "obstacle" is built on is:
Truth will never be attacked from within the church group, if it is, that is evidence it isn't really truth.

Take a tour of Biblical history again.
Jeremiah, why are you teaching that judgment will befall Jerusalem? Look at all the other prophets teaching that the Lord will free us from Babylonian control, but you have to destroy people's faith in deliverance with your doom and gloom message.
Look even the esteemed prophet Hananiah openly confronted you and showed how unreasonable your message is.

What this premise fails to take into account --
Satan isn't worried about people teaching counterfeits-
BUT when truth is taught, he will attack with vigor and do his best to destroy it's effectiveness.

3. Inscrutability— Supporting evidence for the I.J. is often hard to understand, ...or even nonexistent....

That "obstacle" is purely a personal opinion.

It only admits "blindness" and refusing to "see". The sanctuary doctrine is all through the Bible, it's not hard to understand at all.

But then even the disciple, those 12 men who walked and talked with Christ for three and half years were totally blind and refused to see what Jesus was telling them about His mission on earth --
Over and over He told them He would die and rise again on the third day -- but they didn't hear, they didn't comprehend. Peter did at one point actually "began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not happen to you. (Matt. 16:22)
It was in scripture, it was portrayed in their religious ceremonies, Jesus Himself told them -- BUT THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE IT. When Jesus died it was a tremendous shock to them, they thought all their hope that He was the Messiah had been in vain. Somehow they had totally missed the pivotal point of salvation in Christ's mission on earth.
Not till after the resurrection did the truth finally begin to enlighten their understanding.

Why this blindness?

Well -- the disciples held to the same "obstacles" that keeps McGregor from finding the truth in the sanctuary

1. The religious leaders were NOT teaching about a Messiah coming to die as the true "Passover Lamb", you couldn't find any scholarly Rabbi teaching that.
2. It was a totally divisive idea -- the messiah was not coming to die, but to drive out the Romans? Right? Wrong.


McGregor's examples --
a) A point in time when Christ begins the IJ is impossible to prove.
--since we can't see into heaven therefore there is nothing to confirm it happened? When we only point to scripture that isn't good enough? It's circular reasoning?

Wow? That "obstacle" would obstruct a lot of faith in Biblical promises and insights into heaven.


b) McGregor's tenative dismissal of other created beings besides the human race having an acute interest in the work of salvation --
This seems to imply that he questions the whole concept of the "great controversy"

Thus --
the real problem is probably right at the foundational point of the journey in understanding.
Why was sin permitted?

Why was scripture written?
Yes, prophecies of the world's future are part of it, they are like "waymarks" marking out the progress of earth's journey through the years of sin, to the great day of the Lord.
They also build faith in scripture as we see what the Lord said would happen does happen.

However, that is not the MAIN reason scripture was written.
I believe you will find massive amounts of support on this one! Pretty much every denomination will teach that scripture is a "love letter" from God in which He seeks to make Himself known to us.

Paul says to Timothy that the scriptures “are able to give you
the wisdom which leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim 3:15).

Jesus said John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Thus truly I believe that the books of Daniel and Revelation (two major prophetic books) are

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John (as well as unto His servant Daniel). (See Rev. 1:1)

Both the books of Daniel and Revelation are very sanctuary based and their prophecies reveal not just what happens on earth BUT also they show the ministry of Christ.







It's more than similarity of language its also similarity of place and actions.

Daniel 7:9-10 we see God in awesome glory on His throne--
"thousands of thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, the books were opened.

In Rev. 4 and 5 we again see God in awesome glory on His throne-- there is also a book, but its still closed at this point. The number of attendants is exactly the same:
5:3 The voice of many angels round about the throne and the (4) beasts and the (24) elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;





Daniel 7:14 is not the second coming because, even though Christ travels "with clouds" in each, there the similarities end. He is not traveling to the same place in those verses.
In Daniel 7:14 He goes to the Ancient of Days while earth events -- the beast and his horn -- are still in action.
In Matt. 26:64 and Mark 14:62 Christ is sitting on the right hand of power -- (I'm not even sure that is the second coming either -- its at a time when the unsaved are raised and see Christ at the right hand of power -- which usually means sitting at the right hand of His Father on His throne (Heb. 1:3, 8:1, 12:2) When are the unsaved raised to see Christ?

The actual date is based on the above.
However there are other clues that point to that approximate time as well.



The question of time I have found quite interesting.

Dan. 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long the vision


"How long the vision concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation...." refers to the entire vision (hazon). This means that the 2300 (days) or evening and mornings must start during the rule of the Persian (ram) and extend through the reign of the Grecian Empire (Goat), it extends through the four horn powers and on to the career of the little horn, until we come to the point IN THE TIME OF THE END.
The word "vision" (hazon) occurs three times in the introduction of this vision .
8.1-3 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel… And I saw in a vision; … in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram. The word “vision” occurs again in verse 13. It occurs three more times after verse 13."When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it" (v. 15)…Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.(v. 16)… he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end the vision. Gabriel then starts explaining the vision, starting with the ram. (v. 20)
So we see every time the word "vision" (hazon) appears in Daniel it is referring to THE WHOLE vision.

So I would say -- the 2300 are years for only then would the answer to "how long the vision" could be sensibly answered.


Now some may point to the rest of the sentence --
....concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation...



The abomination of desolation has it's own dates:
Dan. 12:11 And from the time the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away (usurped), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.





First we need to clarify that there is no mention of SACRIFICES in Daniel 8 anywhere.
It has been added by translators, it is NOT in the original.

If Daniel had meant "sacrifices" in chapter eight, he would have said "sacrifices" as he did in Daniel 9:27. However, the word "sacrifice" is NOT mentioned AT ALL by Daniel in chapter 8.
When the little horn magnifies himself to the Prince of Heaven (which is Christ in the heavenly sanctuary) and seeks to cast to the earth the heavenly sanctuary truth, (the PLACE of the sanctuary) Christ has already completed the GREAT SACRIFICE at the cross and is in the heavenly as our HIGH PRIEST in "continual" "tamid" ministry as outlined in Hebrews. The "once and for all" sacrifice has taken place, thus there is no mention of "sacrifices" in Daniel 8.

The papacy usurps Christ's continual, daily, heavenly priestly ministry --

Also there is no mention of "sanctuary being reconstructed" in Daniel 8.

The word in Daniel 8:14 is
(#6663) “ntsadaq” from "tsadaq" which has a forensic meaning of “justify, vindicate, clear, made righteousness, cleanse" .
Forensic means it is connected with or used in courts of law.
The word used in Daniel 8;14 is a stronger, term then the “cleansed” used in Leviticus, for this cleansing IS THE REAL THING.
Indeed this passage might well be translated: “Then shall the sanctuary have atonement made for it”.
Remember that the REAL “cleansing“ must be done with the BETTER blood of Christ. When Christ cleanses the heavenly sanctuary it will stand in the courts of eternal law for all eternity.

“Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed” announces the beginning of the great Day of Atonement. It is the beginning of the judicial court conducted in heaven as outlined in Daniel 7,






Daniel 9 speaks of Christ's earthly ministry -- and it's rejection by the majority of the chosen nation.
Daniel 8 speaks of Christ's holy place "daily" or 'continual" ministry, and it's attempted usurpation by the papal church power.

The vision of Daniel 8 begins with the Ram which is Media Persia.
The 2,300 day/years tell us how long the vision of Daniel 8, which begins with Media Persia, and ends with the sanctuary being cleansed at the “time of the end“.

The 490 years in Daniel 9 are clearly stated as beginning with the restoration of Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity. It was a Media Persian king that made the decree, and 483 years later Messiah the Prince came to earth.

So the Daniel 9 says:
Restoration of Jerusalem (which took place during “Ram’s” rule) to Messiah the Prince, (Jesus life, death and the opening of the heavenly sanctuary is 490 day/years.

The Vision in Daniel 8 also begins with the “Rams” rule and goes to the cleansing of the sanctuary-- 2300 day/years.




True time is expressed in different terminology but the day for a year principle is the same.

Daniel 8 "evening and morning" equals 1 day. 2300 evening and mornings equal 2300 days.
The day for a year principle -- 2300 years

Daniel 9 seventy sevens
Or seventy weeks = 490 days
the day for a year principle -- 490 years.

And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution.

Quite surprisingly, on this I agree with APL: Salvation is not a legal/forensic process. But that would be for another thread.

dedication
I participate in this forum to explore various religious and spiritual ideas, both to build my faith and to discover flaws in my theology--and there are many. In my responses I always try (sometimes more successfully than others) to maintain a civil attitude and scholarly response.

However, I do not find the tone of your posts either friendly or helpful. This is disappointing, especially from one tasked as a moderator and member of the Administration Team. I should have thought such a person would be anxious to foster and maintain a positive environment.

I have already PM'd you on this concern.

I cannot (nor do I desire to) control your actions, but I can control mine. Therefore I will no longer either read or respond to your posts, as I find them sarcastic, closed-minded, and lacking in those qualities which promote serious scholarly discussion.

Hello Nadi, I apologize for the long wait period before I got around to replying to this post. I think all of your questions are good ones, and as soon as I have time, a little later today I will begin responding, starting with the question I have enclosed in quote above. Have a great & Godly day,,,will talk later.

[color:#FF0000][/color]I like the way you said this about salvation being a healing process!! Very well said.

Why would you think my seeking to show the problems with the attacks upon our beliefs, is being "unkind" and "uncivil"?

When I talk to people they quite enjoy a little more animation, but somehow you think it "unkind".


It took me several hours to methodically and KINDLY with an earnest heart to answer all the points you and that website your referenced made against my beliefs, and show that these unfavorable assessments of what I believe have rather serious problems and are based on rather serious misunderstandings.


Yet what is the response I receive for taking the time to answer the charges -- it is an attack upon my person while totally ignoring the points and the message.

That has been your tactic quite often, Nadi,
it is YOU that is often unkind and uncivil.

The thing that is unkind is how people keep telling us (based only on their opinion not fact) that our beliefs are "convoluted, contradictory, very technical, highly debatable, inaccessible, or nonexistent". Yet when we carefully explain things, the only response is to attack me personally.

Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- agree!

However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity.

When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5)
When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation.