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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: dedication]
#184269
06/29/17 06:07 AM
06/29/17 06:07 AM
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SDA Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution. Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- agree! However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity.When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5)When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation. I think you are both right, just saying it in different words!
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: The Wanderer]
#184270
06/29/17 11:24 AM
06/29/17 11:24 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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I disagree Wanderer.
The information from dedication is completely correct, whereas, the information from APL is only partially correct.
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: dedication]
#184271
06/29/17 11:31 AM
06/29/17 11:31 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Excellent post dedication.
I noticed that Nadi mentioned nobody else she knows of believes in the Investigative Judgment. That isn't any point at all. It is very possible for all those people to be unbiblical!
I have always been greatly distressed at the lack of Biblical evidence and/or Biblical reasoning others rely on to so-called disprove the IJ.
The earthly sanctuary is very easy to find and learn about in the Bible. The Heavenly Sanctuary is stressed in the Book of Hebrews and the 2300 days can't be explained any other way.
Oh well.
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: Nadi]
#184272
06/29/17 11:36 AM
06/29/17 11:36 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution. Quite surprisingly, on this I agree with APL: Salvation is not a legal/forensic process. But that would be for another thread. Salvation has a very serious legal application to it. Calvary was taught in the earthly sanctuary through the alter of burned offerings. We see multiple processes being fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and His death and resurrection.
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: Nadi]
#184273
06/29/17 11:39 AM
06/29/17 11:39 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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That is too bad Nadi. Dedication's posts have been excellent and thoughtful in that she checked the information and source that you provided!
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: Alchemy]
#184277
06/29/17 08:29 PM
06/29/17 08:29 PM
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SDA Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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I disagree Wanderer.
The information from dedication is completely correct, whereas, the information from APL is only partially correct. They have each said some points that were correct, and some not. Its important to acknowledge when we see something right
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: dedication]
#184279
06/29/17 08:42 PM
06/29/17 08:42 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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And here is where I differ from dedication - in her description, she adds the term "forensic", as if salvation is a legal process. Salvation is much more than that. Salvation is a healing process, and Christ's ministry is not a judicial process. Also, the penalty for a legal process is an imposed penalty while the penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin kills, not God. Sinners will perish, but not by execution. Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- agree! However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity. When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5) When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation. It is the "ministry of healing", not the "ministry of Jurisprudence". Living next to a pardon criminal does not give one comfort unless you know that the person is changed, transformed. Physicians make judgments every day, but they are not "legal" judgments. They are judgments that assess a situation as it really is.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: APL]
#184281
06/30/17 02:36 AM
06/30/17 02:36 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,769
Canada
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Those who come to Christ and look to Him for their salvation are changed -- call it healed, transformed, made new, born again -- salvation in Christ changes our hearts and minds, yes that is true -- agree! However, the judgment is also a legal "forensic" activity.
When the court is seated and the books are opened and the names are presented before the Father and the angels--- (Dan. 7:9,10,14, Rev. 3:5) When either our sins are blotted out or our names (Rev. 3:5) --- a final decision is made (Rev. 22:11) -- and that is a "forensic" or legal action, based on our response to the greater aspect of salvation.
It is the "ministry of healing", not the "ministry of Jurisprudence". Living next to a pardon criminal does not give one comfort unless you know that the person is changed, transformed. Physicians make judgments every day, but they are not "legal" judgments. They are judgments that assess a situation as it really is. Isn't that why there is an Investigative Judgment -- there is no need to worry about living next to a pardoned criminal because only those sinners (and we are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God) who have been both pardoned and "born again" in Christ, renewed in heart and mind by the Holy Spirit, who will have their names retained in the book of life. We are all sinners -- that includes you APL, as well as me. I definitely need pardon for my sins, as well as cleansing and healing and overcoming by the blood of the Lamb. Don't you desire pardon for your sins? Your sins will stand against you in that judgment, no matter how good you might become, if you don't seek and believe in that pardon which only Christ can give you.
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: Nadi]
#184282
06/30/17 02:55 AM
06/30/17 02:55 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Son is not a "legal" problem. We need "cleansing" from sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word translated "forgive" in this verse is aphiemi, which is the idea of causing something to go into remission. Much like making cancer go into remission. A person with cancer does not need a "legal" solution to their problem, they need a real solution.
In the investigative judgment, God is as much if not more on trial than the saved sinners. God is showing His case that the righteous are safe to save, safe to be in heaven. They are not legally let off the hook but are actually a new creature, cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
[Re: Nadi]
#184283
06/30/17 04:23 AM
06/30/17 04:23 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,769
Canada
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Just to share some thoughts as to how Adventists first found the Sanctuary message in scripture. Most realize that the Millerite Adventists, using the then recognized historicist method of Bible prophetic interpretation thought Jesus would come in 1844. The "sanctuary will be cleansed" in Daniel 8, they believed was this earth. The day after the disappointment several men spent time praying, pleading with God to show them "why" Jesus had not come. Finally, deciding to visit some neighbors, two of these men crossed a field, when Hiram Edson, suddenly was struck with a powerful thought -- SANCTUARY, Jesus, High Priest, heavenly sanctuary! This text in Daniel 8 wasn't about this earth. The Millerites had gone to considerable lengths to ascertain the date for the "Day of Atonement" for that year, yet what did the "day of atonement" signify? No, not the second coming, but the High Priest entering the Most Holy Place! The thoughts flashed through his mind with such power it seemed almost like a vision. He told his companion who had gone on ahead, "The Lord has answered our prayer,” Then those men opened their Bibles to see if the Bible taught this! Here is a sampling of what they found. The Sanctuary was the heart of the typical system. There the Lord placed his name, manifested his glory, and held converse with the High Priest relative to the welfare of Israel. While we inquire from the scriptures what the sanctuary is, let all educational prejudice be dismissed from the mind. For the Bible clearly defines what the Sanctuary is, and answers every reasonable question you may ask concerning it.
Paul freely discusses this subject in his Epistle to the Hebrews,....
But Christ being come an High Priest of good things to come by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands;" verse 11. The priests entered the "figures" or "patterns of the true," which true, are the "heavenly places themselves" into which Christ entered when he entered "heaven itself;" verses 23,24. When he ascended to the right hand of the Father "in the heavens" he became "A minister of the Sanctuary (Hagion, Holies) and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched and not man;" Ch 8: 1,2. That is the Sanctuary of the "better (the new) covenant", verse 6.
The Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2,300 days is also the Sanctuary of the new covenant, for the vision of the treading down and cleansing, is after the crucifixion. We see that the Sanctuary of the new covenant is not on earth, but in heaven. - The true tabernacle which forms a part of the new covenant Sanctuary, was made and pitched by the Lord, in contradistinction to that of the first covenant which was made and pitched by man, in obedience to the command of God. Exodus 25:8. (by Crozier and Edson) When our Saviour was at Jerusalem and had pronounced its house desolate, the disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. Then he said: "There shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down": Matthew 24:1,2.
Standing, as he was, on the dividing line between the typical covenant and the anti-typical, and having just declared the house of the former no longer valid, and foretold its destruction; how natural that he should point his disciples to the Sanctuary of the latter, about which their affections and interests were to cluster as they had about that of the former. The Sanctuary of the new covenant is connected with New Jerusalem, like the Sanctuary of the first covenant was with Old Jerusalem. As that was the place where the priests of that covenant ministered, so this is in heaven, the place where the Priest of the new covenant ministers. To these places, and these only, the New Testament applies the name "Sanctuary," and it does appear that this should forever set the question at rest.
But as we have been so long and industriously taught to look to the earth for the Sanctuary, it may be proper to inquire, By what scriptural authority have we been thus taught? I can find none. If others can, let them produce it. Let it be remembered that the definition of Sanctuary is "a holy or sacred place." Is the earth, is Palestine such a place? Their entire contents answer, No! Was Daniel so taught? Look at his vision. "And the place of his Sanctuary was cast down;" Daniel. 8:11. This casting down was in the days and by the means of the Roman power; therefore, the Sanctuary of this text was not the Earth, nor Palestine [as the Millerites had taught]
The Sanctuary cast down is his, against whom Rome magnified himself, which was the Prince of the host, Jesus Christ; and Paul teaches that his Sanctuary is in heaven. (He quotes much of Hebrews five) The Priesthood of Christ.
The priesthood of the worldly Sanctuary of the first covenant belonged to the sons of Levi; but that of the heavenly, of the better covenant, to the Son of God. He fulfils both the Priesthood of Melchisedec and Aaron. In some respects the Priesthood of Christ resembles that of Melchisedec; and in others that of Aaron or Levi.
As the priests of the law served unto the example and shadow of the heavenly service we can from their service learn something of the nature of the heavenly service. "Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle; for, see (saith he) that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the Mount".
None can deny that, in obedience to this administration [admonition], Moses made or instituted the Levitical priesthood; it was then "according to the pattern" which the Lord showed him, and that pattern was of heavenly things, Hebrews 9:23. If there was not another text to prove that the Levitical priesthood was typical of the Divine, this would abundantly do it. Yet some are even denying this obvious import of the priesthood; but if this is not its import, I can see no meaning in it. It is an idle round of ceremonies without sense or use, as it did not perfect those for whom it was performed; but looked upon as typical of the heavenly, it is replete with the most important instruction. As this is the application made of it by the New Testament, so we must regard it, while we examine the atonement made under the Levitical priesthood.
"Now when these things (the worldly Sanctuary with its two apartments and the furniture in each) were thus ordained, the priests went always (daily, Hebrews 7:27; 10:11) into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God; but in the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of his people." Hebrews 9:6,7. Here Paul divides the services of the Levitical priesthood into two classes - one daily in the Holy, and the other yearly in the Holy of Holies.
This did not atone for sins either individually or collectively. The daily service described was a sort of continual intercession; but the making of atonement was a special work for which special directions are given. Different words are used both in the Old Testament and New, to express the same idea as At-one-ment.
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