Christ came to save [rescue, heal] fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. [a legal break away? Or a total transformation?] Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, [he still is apparently] that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. [we can't let that happen!] He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. [such as how sinners are destroys?] The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. [even - love Me, or I will kill you!] He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. [one who has to actively punish sin, for certainly sin is not so bad as to cause death by itself!] Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. [if you have seen ME, you have seen the FATHER] Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. [where do we see Christ actively destroying anything? We don't!] The only way in which he could set [justify] and keep [sanctify] men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. [salvation is only by partaking of the divine nature, it is not a legal pardon, but healing] {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

The psychopathic mindset is if you don't love me, then I'll kill you. No, God has never actively killed anyone. Sin does that just fine. But you want to ignore the plainest statements and only take bits and pieces instead of reading as a whole. When EGW writes, "God destroys no man," you say "yes he does, you take that statement out of context!" Well, I can only hope that someday you will open your eyes and see God as He really is.

Truth or half truths mixed with error?




True it is their clinging to sin that results in their destruction. Sin in that sense destroys them. But the actual substance that destroys them is FIRE, not sin.

Rev. 20:15,14 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... This is the second death.
Rev. 20:9 fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Mal. 4:3 ...the wicked; for they shall be ashes ....



But I believe it was the first death Adam was warned against.
Gen. 3:17 " for in the day that you eat thereof dying you shall die."

The dying process began the day they ate the forbidden fruit. That process was much slower back then, now one is barely full grown when the signs of withering up and getting feeble (slowly dying) start to show.

What many fail to realize is that the first death, without Divine intervention, was the "final death".
If Christ had not stood as humanities' surety, and would not have gone to the cross, and paid the penalty God's broken law demanded for Adam and all his descendants, and if any personal sin would have been found in Christ, holding Him in the grave so that He rose not, then there would be no resurrection for anyone.
The first death would be the end of existence forever.

We get too technical over "first death" and "second" death".
Pretending that the "first" death isn't really death. It is really death, the extinction of life.
There would be no return from the first death were it not for Christ's sacrifice.

Thanks to Christ's sacrifice, the first death is not the final death, we call it a "sleep" because Christ gained the victory over the first death and will wake us back to life. It is only because of Christ's victory over the first death, that there is need for a "second death".

The definition of the second death is the forever death-- the final, irreversible extinction of life.


Christ was facing the first death without any mediator, without a savior, without the assurance of a resurrection, thus He experience the full and awful agony of the "final death" for He felt the sins of the world were too great upon Him to allow Him to rise again. He felt the terrible displeasure God the Father against sin. He felt a wall separating Him forever, from the Father.

If Christ had failed to fulfill all the demands of the law in perfect righteousness, and slipped into even a "small" sin, Satan would have triumphed, he could have held Christ in the tomb and there would not have been a resurrection: Not for Christ, nor for anyone else. The first death would have been "the final death".

Adam and Eve's first death would have been the final death, and that would be the end of the story. It would have been FINAL.
There would be no resurrection, thus no need for a second death, as the first would have been final.

1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.





A shift away from the true reason why Christ died --
Was the purpose to "demonstrate" the second death,
or was it to "experience" the penalty and punishment which the law demands of transgressors?


Christ experienced the agony of the final death, (in measures far greater than the wicked will experience when they realize their lot is the final, irreversible death) but even though He fully experienced the agony of facing the final death, Christ did not "demonstrate the second death" He did not die the final death. He rose AGAIN! Praise the Lord!

Christ's resurrection announces to mankind that He, Christ, has triumphed over the grave. He didn't triumph over the second death, BUT HE triumphed over the first death -- no longer is the first death final.

Because Christ triumphed over the first death -- everyone will rise again -- as I pointed out in my last post.

Because of Christ’s victory over death, the grave is not final. The believer does not grieve as one who has no hope (1 Thess. 4:13). Thanks to Jesus’ resurrection all who have died believing and trusting in the Savior, will one day be taken from their graves to be clothed with glorified resurrection bodies (1 Cor. 15:42-44). And so “we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:17).

The unsaved also will be resurrected, BUT for them,

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Originally Posted By: dedication

True it is their clinging to sin that results in their destruction. Sin in that sense destroys them. But the actual substance that destroys them is FIRE, not sin.

Did Christ experience the second death? If so, then look there. Was there fire involved? YES!

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. [wrath of God = hiding of the Father's countence] Tho innocent, Christ was treated as a sinner, that through His merits sinners, tho guilty, might be treated as the loyal and obedient children of God. Christ died with the sins of the world imputed to Him, that His righteousness might be imputed to the sinner. When the sense of the loss of His Father's favor was withdrawn, Christ had drained the last dregs in the cup of bitterness. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9}

In His great suffering, Christ felt no pang of bitterness against His Father. He felt no remorse for His own sins, but for the sins of the fallen race. But those who refuse the gift of Christ will one day feel the sting of remorse. Entire obedience to the law of God is the condition of salvation. Those who refuse this, who refuse to accept Christ, will become embittered against God. When punished [let go, given up, handed over] for transgression, they will feel despair and hatred. This will be the experience of all who do not enter into Christ's suffering; for it is the sure consequence of sin. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 12}

We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath [hiding of the Father's countence] abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. [file = mental anguish] Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}

Christ experienced the consequence of sin, and it was a fire unquenchable, the same which every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed.

Why are you posting falsehoods?
Never have I argued that satan and his angels are immortal. Never, never, never.
Why are you accusing me of something I would never say, or believe.

Thank God -- that a time is coming when they will be no more! Satan and his angels are NOT immortal!!!!

God's angels do have a conditional immortality, given them by God, the giver of all life.

Obviously you do not read.
For this is what I wrote -- and only with intense twisting and ignoring key phrases would anyone come to the conclusion that you did.



The only reason satan is still alive is because God grants him life.
He's not immortal, God grants him life, so he can demonstrate his rule.
God' grants life, and God takes life.

That's a principle I've been trying to share -- but you turn it into "immortality' or 'murder'? (Shake head in amazement at such twisting)

Another false statement by APL





No -- I said IN THIS LIFE -- go back and read.
You are definitely NOT reading, or comprehending.

For this is what I wrote:



Then APL brought up Korah and his companions, who were swallowed up by the earth. Implying this was "simply God removing His protection" not actively destroying these men.

Actually years ago when some other people first tried to tell us much the same theories APL presents, it was this Bible story that convinced me of their error.

Read the story carefully as described in PP.




So Moses puts forth a challenge --
Much like Elijah put forth a challenge on Mount Carmel.

We know what happened in both those challenges.
Most will readily acknowledge that God sent down the fire on the altar in answer to Elijah's challenge on Mount Carmel.

But -- the advocates of the same theory that APL promotes told me that it was satan that opened the earth to swallow Nathan, Korah and Abiram.

I was astonished! How could that be?
Oh, they said, Satan inspired the jealousy and ambition of these men and was planning the whole thing in order to destroy Israel.

Now, I agree satan was inspiring the jealousy and evil plots these men were hatching.
But who opened the earth to swallow them?

The answer is very clear on this point.




A signal manifestation of God's power ----
How could anyone ascribe that to the enemy?

But now comes the quote that totally convinced me this theory APL is also sharing, is wrong.



"They dared to attribute God's judgments to Satan,...
It was this act that sealed their doom."

What is it about sin that causes death in the presence of God? EGW is clear that if satan has been left to the inevitiable results of his sin, he would have died. Yes, we are all on artificial life support. Satan and the human race.
And you need to read this in the context of Numbers 21:6 Then the LORD sent poisonous snakes among the people, and many Israelites were bitten and died.

But did the LORD send fiery serpents? And in Korah's case, we have further evidence: 1 Corinthians 10:10 We must not complain, as some of them did---and they were destroyed by the Angel of Death.

And this is why I say you DO believe that the judgments of God do indeed come directly out from Him. But EGW's comment is not qualified to say, occationally His judgments do not come directly out from Him. Thus, this statement from your viewpoint cannot be ever appied. When EGW writes that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression but leaves the sinner to reap that which they have sewn, you say, NOPE - that did not happen to Korah. So I cannot see where ever you would apply these statements.


Read the full quote what sealed their doom - it was not that their accusation was that the judgment was done by Satan alone, but that it was Moses and Aaron using the power of Satan. Accusing Moses and Aaron sealed their doom.

dedication,

I would add to your evidence of Korah, Nathan and Abiram, the story of Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron who were slain by fire that came from God.

Leviticus 10:1-2 Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu, each took his fire pan, put live coals in it, added incense, and presented it to the LORD. But this fire was not holy, because the LORD had not commanded them to present it. (2) Suddenly the LORD sent fire, and it burned them to death there in the presence of the LORD.

Leviticus 10:4-5 Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel, Aaron's uncle, and said to them, "Come here and carry your cousins' bodies away from the sacred Tent and put them outside the camp." (5) So they came and took hold of the clothing on the corpses and carried them outside the camp, just as Moses had commanded.

The fire comes from God to kill the impenitent such as the drunken Nadab and Abihu, went into the sanctuary without the protection of the incense. In this case it is found that they entered into God's presence with their own fire, their own righteousness, which cannot endure before Him.

The same principle applies to the two hundred and fifty princes in the story of the rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. These men had also come before the Lord with their own fire. Such is done by the rebel, as if to state, no, as truly stating, "We will not have this Jesus reign over us." They are making a fundamental statement of intent to stand on their own and in defiance of God's righteousness as their only covering and protection, they boldly try to come before Him on their own merits. God honors their final choice in the matter, and we have then a dramatic example of the withdrawal of His word, the fire of the Holy Spirit, from them, and they are "consumed," not in a physical rapid oxidation from great heat, but they die immediately by the cessation of God's sustaining power within their being.

Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinful people of Zion are trembling with fright. They say, "God’s judgment is like a fire that burns forever. Can any of us survive a fire like that?" (15) You can survive if you say and do what is right. Don’t use your power to cheat the poor and don’t accept bribes. Don’t join with those who plan to commit murder or to do other evil things.

"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matthew 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isaiah 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. {DA 108.1}

A signal manifestation of God's power ----
How could anyone ascribe that to the enemy?




"They dared to attribute God's judgments to Satan,...
It was this act that sealed their doom."

You keep leaving out the important part, in your ...

they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom.

Declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron cause the death of good and holy men. Did Moses and Aaron via ANY power cause the death Korah et al? Nope. THAT accusation is what sealed the doom their accusers. I can understand why you want to use ellipses to remove the point of the statement, because it destroys your argument.

Here it is:

So by asking, "Do you accept", in response to you rejecting that "God doesn't kill", mean I'm "pretty upset" with you?

Really?