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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184406
07/07/17 07:43 PM
07/07/17 07:43 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Read The Great Controversy, chapter 33 where is speaks of the "retributive justice". Read what happens to the sinner, and now God is involved, and how they sink into oblivion. And look at the Cross! Did Christ die the death of a sinner? If you believe so, then there is your answer. SIN pays it wage, death. SIN when it is full, brings death, not execution by God.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184407
07/07/17 10:56 PM
07/07/17 10:56 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL, Your "unambiguous" quote from Mrs. White in which she says "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. . . ." reminds me of the equally "unambiguous" scriptures some have used as follows: "Then Judas . . . went and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:3-5) "Then said Jesus . . ., Go, and do thou likewise." (Luke 10:37) "Then said Jesus . . ., That thou doest, do quickly." (John 13:27) What's that you say? "Out of context"?! Yet so is your statement. You have failed to include the context with it in which it becomes clear that Ellen White is addressing the here and now, and not the time of future judgment. When she says, as you quote from another passage, that "God destroys no man," she is addressing the character of a man, not the judgment to take place afterward when that man has already destroyed himself in character and unfitted himself for eternal happiness in heaven. But these things have been pointed out to you before, and yet you persist in spreading your out-of-context, ill-advised views. "There are none so blind as they who will not see." But I have some news for you. The following statement is super clear and exceedingly unambiguous--you better follow it: 347. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.--T., V. II, p. 352. {HL 78.5} Have you given up nuts and vegetables yet?
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184409
07/08/17 12:50 AM
07/08/17 12:50 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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Have you forgotten that Christ died the death of a sinner? And how was God involved? How did Christ die? Have you no answer?
Is when she says that that exercise of force is contrary to the principles of the government of God out of context?
Is when she says, rebellion is not to be overcome by force, out of context?
Is when she says compelling power is only found under Satan's government out of context?
In the sanctuary service, what is the end of the sinner?
There is so much evidence, that one has to be willfully ignorant.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184410
07/08/17 01:12 AM
07/08/17 01:12 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Have you forgotten that Christ died the death of a sinner? And how was God involved? How did Christ die? Have you no answer? Have you not read my earlier posts? or Gary's? Did those statements of Mrs. White we quoted appear ambiguous to you? Whether or not you understood them, you have no cause to say we have no answer to this question. Is when she says that that exercise of force is contrary to the principles of the government of God out of context? Only if you mean to apply the statement out-of-context to punishment instead of to conscience. Is when she says, rebellion is not to be overcome by force, out of context? Only if you mean to apply the statement out-of-context to punishment instead of to conscience. Is when she says compelling power is only found under Satan's government out of context? Only if you mean to apply the statement out-of-context to punishment instead of to conscience. In the sanctuary service, what is the end of the sinner? Death. If the high priest entered the most holy place with unconfessed sins -- the same would have resulted with him as with Nadab and Abihu. We are told in no uncertain terms that "there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." (Leviticus 10:2) There is so much evidence, that one has to be willfully ignorant. You are partially correct in this. The more astonishing part that leads to the full truth is that these who are "willfully ignorant" have managed to deceive themselves. There is an interesting picture for you: willfully deceived. They prefer to believe that they are NOT deceived--when they did it to themselves! What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct. {3T 252.4} "Honestly deceived"? -- Pray for the denunciation of the True Witness regarding your true condition of spiritual blindness.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184411
07/08/17 02:13 AM
07/08/17 02:13 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
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Have you forgotten that Christ died the death of a sinner? And how was God involved? How did Christ die? Have you no answer? Christ "gave up his life" a willing "sacrifice" taking the punishment for our sins. John 10:15,17,18 [Jesus said]I lay down my life for the sheep. ... Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us
Hebrews 7:27 [Christ our High Priest] Who need not daily, as those [earthly] high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Eph. 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us, and has given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God
1 Cor. 5:7 For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: EGW comments: "Christ laid aside His royal robes and garbed Himself with humanity and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. AA33
" behold the Redeemer of the world suffering the penalty of their transgression of the law of God. The verdict is that "the soul that sinneth it shall die." [Ezekiel 18:4.] But on the cross the sinner sees the only begotten of the Father, dying in his stead, and giving the transgressor life. {CE 95)
"He who was the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of His person, bore our sins in His own body on the tree, suffering the penalty of man’s transgression until justice was satisfied and required no more. OFE 116
"This penalty Christ bore for the sins of the transgressor; He has borne the punishment for every man and for this reason He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness (MS 77, 1899) Is when she says that that exercise of force is contrary to the principles of the government of God out of context?
Is when she says, rebellion is not to be overcome by force, out of context?
Is when she says compelling power is only found under Satan's government out of context? The phrases can be given meanings that were not part of the original authors thought -- yes. The phrases are in the context of Satan's initial rebellion in heaven. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble -- why didn't He? The "force" being spoken of here is forcing obedience through fear. No -- at this point no one would have understood, God would not simply zap Satan out of existence and have created beings serving Him out of fear, He would allow Satan's rebellion to show it's true nature, and continue to extend the gift of life to sinners for a time, to allow created beings to chose whom they would serve. It's not saying that there is no punishment for sin. Indeed there is punishment for sin, but in order for mankind to chose whom they would serve, God himself in Jesus, took that punishment upon Himself. Reject that gift, and the punishment will fall on the rejecter of His grace. In the sanctuary service, what is the end of the sinner? He is "cut off". Lev. 23:29 For whoever shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 23:30 And whoever does any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184412
07/08/17 03:42 AM
07/08/17 03:42 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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"Christ laid aside His royal robes and garbed Himself with humanity and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. AA33 " behold the Redeemer of the world suffering the penalty of their transgression of the law of God. The verdict is that "the soul that sinneth it shall die." [Ezekiel 18:4.] But on the cross the sinner sees the only begotten of the Father, dying in his stead, and giving the transgressor life. {CE 95} "He who was the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of His person, bore our sins in His own body on the tree, suffering the penalty of man’s transgression until justice was satisfied and required no more. OFE 116 "This penalty Christ bore for the sins of the transgressor; He has borne the punishment for every man and for this reason He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness (MS 77, 1899) Yes! He bore the penalty, the punishment!! The SAME that sinner will experience if they refused to be saved. So looking at the cross, we see how sinner will PERISH. We do not see an EXECUTION by God. The phrases can be given meanings that were not part of the original authors thought -- yes. But do they? Obvious you believe so. But is that true? The phrases are in the context of Satan's initial rebellion in heaven. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble -- why didn't He? The "force" being spoken of here is forcing obedience through fear. No -- at this point no one would have understood, God would not simply zap Satan out of existence and have created beings serving Him out of fear, He would allow Satan's rebellion to show it's true nature, and continue to extend the gift of life to sinners for a time, to allow created beings to chose whom they would serve. So God can exercise force to put down rebellion? No. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2}
Do you mean to tell me that the inevitable consequences of sin is execution by God? NO, the inevitable consequences of sin is death, sin pays it wage. If Satan had been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have died. But the on looking universe would not have understood how God was involved. They would havea mistaken it as God killing them. But God let the universe see a demonstration of the working out of the changes to the divine law that Satan made, his own work would condemn him. The universe was not prepared to comprehend the nature and consequences of sin. Not so in the end. All will know that the wages of sin is death, not execution by God. Satan's experiement will be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments. {GC 499.1} Also, It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin [even kill]. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God. By perverted conceptions of the divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favor of Deity; and horrible cruelties have been perpetrated under the various forms of idolatry. [and believe that God kills sinners, when in reality it is sin that kills sinners, they get it backwards] {GC 569.1} It's not saying that there is no punishment for sin. Indeed there is punishment for sin, but in order for mankind to chose whom they would serve, God himself in Jesus, took that punishment upon Himself. Reject that gift, and the punishment will fall on the rejecter of His grace. And HOW was the punishment that Christ experienced on the Cross came? Did the Father execute His son? NO. The same punishment for sin that Christ experienced, sinner who reject Christ will experience. But the universe will know that it is sin that causes death, not God. The Sanctuary Service: Leviticus 16:20-22 AKJV And when he has made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: (21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (22) And the goat shall bear on him all their iniquities to a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. The Wrath of God: Romans 1:18-28 AKJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things. (24) Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Romans 3:23-26 GSNT For all men sin and come short of the glory of God, (24) but by his mercy they are made upright for nothing, by the deliverance secured through Christ Jesus. (25) For God showed him publicly dying as a sacrifice of reconciliation to be taken advantage of through faith. This was to vindicate his own justice (for in his forbearance, God passed over men's former sins)— (26) to vindicate his justice at the present time, and show that he is upright himself, and that he makes those who have faith in Jesus upright also. Romans 5:8-10 GSNT But God proves his love for us by the fact that Christ died for us when we were still sinners. (9) So if we have already been made upright by his death, it is far more certain that through him we shall be saved from God's anger! (10) If, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, [we clearly see that God is not the executioner, we are reconciled to Him] it is far more certain that now that we are reconciled we shall be saved through sharing in his life!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184414
07/08/17 06:32 AM
07/08/17 06:32 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Canada
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Christ "gave up his life" a willing "sacrifice" taking the punishment for our sins.
John 10:15,17,18 [Jesus said]I lay down my life for the sheep. ... Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us
Hebrews 7:27 [Christ our High Priest] Who need not daily, as those [earthly] high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Eph. 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us, and has given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God
"Christ laid aside His royal robes and garbed Himself with humanity and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. AA33 " behold the Redeemer of the world suffering the penalty of their transgression of the law of God. The verdict is that "the soul that sinneth it shall die." [Ezekiel 18:4.] But on the cross the sinner sees the only begotten of the Father, dying in his stead, and giving the transgressor life. {CE 95} "He who was the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of His person, bore our sins in His own body on the tree, suffering the penalty of man’s transgression until justice was satisfied and required no more. OFE 116 "This penalty Christ bore for the sins of the transgressor; He has borne the punishment for every man and for this reason He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness (MS 77, 1899) Yes! He bore the penalty, the punishment!! The SAME that sinner will experience if they refused to be saved. So looking at the cross, we see how sinner will PERISH. We do not see an EXECUTION by God. True, they die because they refused to be saved. But you hide a whole different theology behind words that have truth. From your previous posts I don't think you believe in "penalty", or "punishment" or even suffering God's displeasure, just in natural happenings. Yes, Christ took our sins, and felt the agony of eternal loss. " Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation." {DA 752. The terrible manifestation of God's displeasure because of those sins, filled Christ with consternation -- so much so that it "broke his heart"... Terrible manifestation of His Father's displeasure.... Christ is God, one with the Father, we will never understand what He suffered as for the first time in eternity, He took upon Himself the very thing God's holiness absolutely abhors (sin) and thus those sins rose like a huge wall, separating Him from the Father. No sinner will ever fully experience or understand this. Christ, our Creator, Who is God, One with the Father, Himself takes the punishment the law demands so "He can ransom every soul, however fallen his condition, if he will accept the law of God as his standard of righteousness." Why would you picture that as an evil that must be fought against? God is in the process of destroying all sin and evil. First, by Himself taking our punishment, so " justice was satisfied" the demands of God's government was upheld, yet He could forgive and give people another chance to choose life. Secondly, God works to fill all who accept His gift of grace with His Spirit, destroying the sin in their lives and raising them to newness of life to walk in the paths of righteousness with Him! He patiently, lovingly works to save every possible person who will respond to His great love. But the "Day of the Lord" will come, a day of God's wrath against sin and deliverance for His people. God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. {DA 759.2} Dedication wrote: The phrases are in the context of Satan's initial rebellion in heaven. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble -- why didn't He? The "force" being spoken of here is forcing obedience through fear. No -- at this point no one would have understood, God would not simply zap Satan out of existence and have created beings serving Him out of fear, He would allow Satan's rebellion to show it's true nature, and continue to extend the gift of life to sinners for a time, to allow created beings to chose whom they would serve. It's not saying that there is no punishment for sin. Indeed there is punishment for sin, but in order for mankind to choose whom they would serve, God himself in Jesus, took that punishment upon Himself. Reject that gift, and the punishment will fall on the rejecter of His grace. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2}
Do you mean to tell me that the inevitable consequences of sin is execution by God? NO, the inevitable consequences of sin is death, sin pays it wage. If Satan had been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have died. But the on looking universe would not have understood how God was involved. They would have mistaken it as God killing them. Why, if sin is simply an intrinsic "DNA" or genetic issue, would the rebellious angels have died back then? The disease would have only begun. Why are they still alive after living with what must be absolutely horrendous defects in their DNA of this is how sin is defined -- they lived in the greatest depths of sin for thousands of years? How is it that they can live and yet be so deeply imbued in the "virus" of sin, if the genetic change in the beginning was already so bad that they would have died right then and there? You see -- it's not based on "genetics" or "sickness" -- it's based on the fact that sin cannot live in the presence of God's absolute holiness. On the same page as your quote is this paragraph: "God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1} The very glory of the holiness of God would have killed them. God veils His glory and in mercy gives life to sinners for a time. We do NOT have life in ourselves. Every breath is a gift of God. Every heartbeat is a gift from God. Life belongs exclusively to God, He is the author of life, the sustainer of life, without Him there is no life. Sinners are rebelling against God and do NOT deserve life -- but in mercy God grants life that we may come to Him and find eternal life in Him. The reason God takes away life, is because He gave life! He can sustain it, or take it -- Everyone already demonstrates that sin causes death in this life. Since Adam sinned, every descendant of Adam (other than Enoch and Elijah) has died, and those now living are slowly dying even as they live. So we already know sin causes death. No mystery there. But because Christ took everyone's sin, and died their punishment, EVERYONE will be raised -- resurrected. God gives everyone life again, not just the saved. 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. All shall be made alive - They that are in Christ at his coming. (resurrection of the saved) Then in the end (resurrection of the unsaved) John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. So the wicked are given life again. The life that was bought for them at Calvary, but, as we see in Rev. 20 there will be "judgment" and it will be seen that they despised the gift of life Christ bought for them, and it will be taken away.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184415
07/08/17 07:12 AM
07/08/17 07:12 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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The Sanctuary Service:
Leviticus 16:20-22And the goat shall bear on him all their iniquities to a land not inhabited: [u]and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. That's not the end of sinners. Those who refused to forsake and confess their sins were "cut off" according to Lev. The goat represents Satan -- in the wilderness 1000 years. "And as the scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC88 657.3} The Wrath of God:
Romans 1:18-28 AKJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... God gave them up to uncleanness That explains a process, not the actual "day of wrath". God reveals truth but people reject God allows them to display where it leads -- giving them up to their sins. That's why the wrath of God is revealed. Compare with 2Thess. 2 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Sadly there is a point where God says -- they won't come to Me for life, thus I have to let them do their thing, filling their lives with unholy activities and their minds with lies, and all will see I am just in ending their existence.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184420
07/08/17 12:11 PM
07/08/17 12:11 PM
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SDA
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And how are they cut off? Active exercise of force to destroy them? No.
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. {DA 763.4}
Yes, all sinner will be cut off. HOW?
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. [cause and effect] God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. [the sinner cuts himself off] He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time [all sinners are on artificial live support] that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. [without the artificial life support, Satan and ALL his followers would have perished] This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. [cut themself off] By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. [God's glory is His Character - one of love, joy, peace] {DA 764.1}
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. [that sin destroys the sinner] Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, [the full INTRINSIC result of sin] they would have perished; [perished, not executed] but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. [the inevitable results of sin = death] A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin [not by the exercise of power to destroy it, but that is the inevitable results of sin] will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3} [the universe will serve God from Love, and will have no fear of Him. sin will never rise again because it will be seen that it is destructive]
Unambiguous states on who causes death:
Satan, who is the author of death... {Ms76-1900}
Satan is the author of death. {Ms1-1889}
Satan the author SIN and all its results, disease and death, wants us to believe that it is God that ultimately causes death. Look how many have fallen for the lie.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184421
07/08/17 04:34 PM
07/08/17 04:34 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
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How is it that a person can come to the place of denying the meaning of words? For a result of violating a law to be intrinsic it has to be a natural result of that law which it violates. And no law is a living being. Laws are inanimate. They do not have emotions. They do not think. They simply exist at the pleasure of the one who created it. In apl's eyes the law of gravity is exacting retribution for what happens naturally when we fall off a roof and get injured. It is our repayment for falling off the roof. Repayment for what? What do we owe the law of gravity? What did we do to harm it in that it is taking vengeance upon us? This distortion of the word retributive, my friends, is patently absurd. The law of gravity makes us fall when we step off the edge of the roof because we no longer have anything under us to support us, but it is not repaying us for anything. Our falling is simply what happens because the law of gravity exists. It is not retribution by the law for only a thinking being can repay or exact retribution for something. This is also not justice in any meaning of the word. Justice is a word only found in the context of morality, and what morality is there in the law of gravity? There is none. Thus, the retributive justice that comes from violating God's moral law has to be an execution of the penalty for violating the law against the violator by God Himself, for it is He who created the law and is the only person who can, in justice, love, and mercy, execute such justice. It is the only way in which the usage of the phrase, retributive justice, makes sense. Otherwise the phrase just becomes nonsense and meaningless.
The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Justice Jus"tice (j[u^]s"t[i^]s), n. [F., fr. L. justitia, fr.
justus just. See Just, a.]
[1913 Webster]
1. The quality of being just; conformity to the principles of
righteousness and rectitude in all things; strict
performance of moral obligations; practical conformity to
human or divine law; integrity in the dealings of men with
each other; rectitude; equity; uprightness.
[1913 Webster]
Justice and judgment are the haditation of thy
throne. --Ps. ixxxix.
11.
[1913 Webster]
The king-becoming graces,
As justice, verity, temperance, stableness, . . .
I have no relish of them. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]
2. Conformity to truth and reality in expressing opinions and
in conduct; fair representation of facts respecting merit
or demerit; honesty; fidelity; impartiality; as, the
justice of a description or of a judgment; historical
justice.
[1913 Webster]
3. The rendering to every one his due or right; just
treatment; requital of desert; merited reward or
punishment; that which is due to one's conduct or motives.
[1913 Webster]
This even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poisoned chalice
To our own lips. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]
4. Agreeableness to right; equity; justness; as, the justice
of a claim.
[1913 Webster]
5. A person duly commissioned to hold courts, or to try and
decide controversies and administer justice.
[1913 Webster]
Note: This title is given to the judges of the common law
courts in England and in the United States, and extends
to judicial officers and magistrates of every grade.
[1913 Webster]
Bed of justice. See under Bed.
Chief justice. See in the Vocabulary.
Justice of the peace (Law), a judicial officer or
subordinate magistrate appointed for the conservation of
the peace in a specified district, with other incidental
powers specified in his commission. In the United States a
justice of the peace has jurisdiction to adjudicate
certain minor cases, commit offenders, officiate at
marriages, etc.; abbreviated JP.
Syn: Equity; law; right; rectitude; honesty; integrity;
uprightness; fairness; impartiality.
Usage: Justice, Equity, Law. Justice and equity are the
same; but human laws, though designed to secure
justice, are of necessity imperfect, and hence what is
strictly legal is at times far from being equitable or
just. Here a court of equity comes in to redress the
grievances. It does so, as distinguished from courts
of law; and as the latter are often styled courts of
justice, some have fancied that there is in this case
a conflict between justice and equity. The real
conflict is against the working of the law; this a
court of equity brings into accordance with the claims
of justice. It would be an unfortunate use of language
which should lead any one to imagine he might have
justice on his side while practicing iniquity
(inequity). Justice, Rectitude. Rectitude, in its
widest sense, is one of the most comprehensive words
in our language, denoting absolute conformity to the
rule of right in principle and practice. Justice
refers more especially to the carrying out of law, and
has been considered by moralists as of three kinds:
(1) Commutative justice, which gives every man his own
property, including things pledged by promise. (2)
Distributive justice, which gives every man his exact
deserts. (3) General justice, which carries out all
the ends of law, though not in every case through the
precise channels of commutative or distributive
justice; as we see often done by a parent or a ruler
in his dealings with those who are subject to his
control.
[1913 Webster]
The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Justice Jus"tice, v. t.
To administer justice to. [Obs.] --Bacon.
[1913 Webster]
WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
justice
n 1: the quality of being just or fair [syn: justice,
justness] [ant: injustice, unjustness]
2: judgment involved in the determination of rights and the
assignment of rewards and punishments
3: a public official authorized to decide questions brought
before a court of justice [syn: judge, justice, jurist]
4: the United States federal department responsible for
enforcing federal laws (including the enforcement of all
civil rights legislation); created in 1870 [syn: Department
of Justice, Justice Department, Justice, DoJ]
Where in the above very complete description of the word "justice" do we find it being described as a "natural" result? Thus, apl's ideas violate not only the meaning of the word retributive, but also the very idea of justice itself.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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