Do you just love having a vengeful God? You truly believe, that if we do not love God, He will kill you. No, torture you! But at least, no longer than you deserve. Can I hear an AMEN?

Justice plain and simple, is doing the right thing. God never coerces a person, and love cannot be commanded.

God's law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man. {SpM 40.6} Metaphor or real? What is the writing medium? Now it God's law encoded? How did violation of the Law cause cancer gary?

I guess the reason for coming to a place where the English language must be destroyed is that love is so misrepresented that reality must not be allowed. We must distort the reality of the English language to support a sentimentalism so profound that cannot allow for the execution of justice by God.

We must also distort the plain writings of the Bible and SOP to support sentimentalism. Love not only allows for discipline and punishment, but requires the administration of discipline and punishment. What parent really loves his child if he refuses to punish him when punishment is required to teach the child that there are behaviors that are completely unacceptable? For the child's own good it must be punished if it fails to learn from admonishment and reasoning alone, for what is more loving, leaving a child to grow up despised by others and sure of landing in jail or being killed in the commission of a crime, or administering appropriate punishment at the time it is required?

And what government can be said to be just with its citizens if it refuses to punish those of its citizens who go out of their way to harm their fellow citizens? Does the citizen who loves to harm his fellow man deserve to ultimately live? Is the state that refuses to punish a murderer because it "loves" him act justly and fairly with respect to the law abiding citizens by refusing to do so?

Does a government who tells people up front how they are to behave commit injustice when it punishes those who act outside the boundaries laid out for them by that government? And if that government has told them up front that the penalty for breaking it's laws is death, does the government uphold its authority and legitimacy by not imposing the sentence? Does that government act with justice and mercy towards those of it's citizens who have not broken the laws by refusing to impose the rightful penalties in the name of justice? And if that government has said this is how you can repent and once more be considered a law abiding citizen and the law breakers refuse to repent is it unjust and unloving to execute the judgment the law requires? It is not. There is no way to actually construe those actions as unloving or even unkind. Only by holding to the idea that all discipline and punishment, no matter how richly deserved, is wrong, can one come to the conclusion that lawful execution of penalties for breaking the law is somehow immoral.

And, in addition to the above, it sends the message that the criminal is of far more value to the government than the law abiding citizen is, because it sets aside it's own clearly expressed values and principles in favor of the the law breaker. There is nothing just about that.

Do you hot have an answer to my question? I don't think so. Perhaps you believe that sin is not really that bad, it is only breaking some rules which in themselves is not really a problem just that it makes god made and then that god must inflict pain and torture to punish the one who broke the rules. So god is the real problem, not sin. NO, sin destroys the sinner. And the Bible and SOP are very clear how God is involved. God must have been wrong according to your last post in His treatment of Cain. Say nothing of His treatment of Satan.

Why do you change the words "holy and just" to "vengeful" and try to picture God's acts of justice as those of a murder?

Why do you take the passages that show God's wondrous mercy and plan of salvation, which tell us that every sinner is offered life, freely, and thus all who reject that gift have, of their own choice chosen death over life, and turn them into a defense that God must not execute justice on the rejecters of mercy or He is the ultimate murderer?

It just doesn't make sense --

Indeed that twist is what God's messenger, which you quote so much warns against --

dedication - Have I ever said that sinners will be destroyed? You will admit - NO. What we debate is how that happens. You claim God HAS to kill them. I say SIN will do it.
What does not make sense is if you reject God's offer of eternal life, that He has to actively remove your life (kill) you. God will do just as He says, He will leave the sinner them themselves to reap that which they have sown. It is sin that causes death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-57
(50) What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
(51) But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
(52) It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
(53) For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
(54) Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die [and our mortal bodies have been transformed into immortal bodies], this Scripture will be fulfilled: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? "
(56) For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power.
(57) But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just read this posting on the Internet:

IN RECENT DISCUSSION WITH SDA TRADITIONALISTS the following sorts of comments are made:

One says, "GOD must punish sin, otherwise, sin will exist forever."

Another says, "Unless sinners repent, it will be no different than Sodom and Gomorrah"

RESPONSE: They will be given to destruction, it is true. That God will use power to destroy them is not true.

To say that "God must punish sin" and mean that He will use power to punish it is saying that the sin principle will not bring death through the choice of the sinner to separate from God. It is saying that the survival of the race is NOT dependent upon God. It is saying that "sin can exist forever," meaning that the sinful race can exist forever, only if God does not come in with power to kill the sinners. Therefore, sin is not the problem. God is the problem. This is spiritualism.

God told our first parents that to disobey Him would bring death. The devil, talking through a snake, said that disobedience would NOT bring death. That is why the statement "God must punish sin," when it is stated to mean that God must come in with power to exterminate as an executioner, is SPIRITUALISM.

It implies that sin is a viable lifestyle and that God's law is arbitrary and imposed, not natural cause and effect. Spiritualism says you can do your own thing -- sin -- and live in it. "Do as thou wilt, this is the whole of the law." The problem, for the sinner, therefore, is that God pulls rank, using superior firepower that He possess as the Creator God, sovereign of the universe, and puts it down by force, instead of allowing the sin principle to fully and finally demonstrate itself.

This belief that "God must punish sin" cuts off at the knees any effective resolution of the great controversy. It renders the last seven thousand years of universal time and observation as wasted time and a farce of gargantuan proportions.

Was that a typo?
Because, as it stands, I agree with your first sentence --
In your theology sinners won't be destroyed, they all are just left to die a natural death.



Yet that is not what EGW or Scripture says --
It's true, in THIS LIFE, God allows people to reap the results of their sin to show the results of sin.
That is part of the great controversy -- to see what satan's rule is like.
Thankfully God many times holds back the fierce evil of sin, to make our lives bearable and even enjoyable.

Yes, living in a world of sin in THIS LIFE brings all sorts of terrible results.
But this is not really "justice" in the true sense of the word.

Why does a man who has committed his life to working for God and living according to God's will get cancer and suffer years of pain, dying a miserable death, while another of equal age who has smoked and lived a godless, worldly life, is strong and in apparent good health into old age?

Why does a woman who loves the Lord give birth to severely handicapped child, while a woman who smokes and drinks, is not married, and lives outside of God's laws, has three healthy children?

There is NO justice in the "results of sin", sin does not work with "justice" for sin is extremely UNJUST,
often God's followers suffer worse than the godless.

That sin renders "justice" is the Pharisee's way of thinking.
Look -- that man is blind, God must have "left him" to reap the results of his sin.

Result of sin -- yes, BUT not the result of his own sin, (he was born blind) nor the result of his parents sin, -- just the arbitrary result of living in the world of sin.

In fact sin has often focused it's worst miseries on God's people!

As David the Psalmist cried in Psalms 73
Why are the wicked healthy, wealthy and comfortable,
While the righteous are in distress and suffering?

It's only as he views the end -- God's righteous justice, that he finds peace.

You quote 2 Cor. 17-- .

Now it's true -- AT THE SECOND COMING, the redeemed receive glorified bodies (instantly-- it is not a process)glorified bodies that will never experience the second death.
But that is not the "healing" scripture speaks of, the healing is process in this life, a healing of our minds, --attitudes, thinking, emotions, and spiritual condition, not necessarily of this earthly body. This earthly body will die, no matter if we are saved or lost, everyone dies the first death. Only the saved of the very last generation never die and suddenly find themselves with new bodies.


You have NOT read (at least not with comprehension) the article I shared, written by EGW.

That post has a lot of errors.

The biggest error -- in this whole discussion -- is how the true reasons for the cross are denied.

All the rest is based on that faulty depiction of the cross which denies that God Himself through Jesus, (Who is God, one with the Father) took our place AS OUR SUBSTITUTE, bearing our sins upon Himself, paid the penalty for our sins, and bought for us eternal life.

God did NOT just forgive everyone at creation, simply out of the kindness, with no regard to the immutability of His law. Extended life, was granted ONLY because Christ stood as surety, offering Himself as the Creator, to take the penalty of the created people's sins.




That is just a lot of error.
Who used His power to raise the unsaved from the dead?
Answer that one!
They already died "the natural death" that sin brought upon the human race. Why is that not mentioned?
Who now used His power to raise them to life?

Remember when Christ died on Calvary He took the sins of ALL.
Scripture tells us Adam brought DEATH to all (and all died the first death as a natural cause of sin)
But through Christ ALL will be resurrected.
See Romans 5:18 and John 5:28-29, 1 Cor. 15:21-24

So again -- Who used His power to resurrect the unsaved?

Those unsaved are resurrected -- given life AGAIN, because Jesus bought life for them at Calvary.

All that nonsense that man has life apart from God etc. etc. is just that -- nonsense.

The unsaved are resurrected by the power of God, because Christ bought the gift of life for them at Calvary.
NOW --
are they just left to live out another "natural life leading to a natural death?"
Is the whole cycle allowed to continue once again?

No -- they are brought before the judgment seat of God (Rev. 20) there it is clearly presented that they despised the blood of the Son of God that bought them life, they rejected God's salvation, the resurrected life that Christ purchased for them they rejected, thus yes, it is taken from them.

The nonsense that God doesn't use "firepower" is just that, nonsense --
Here the whole numberless throng of unsaved along with the mighty fallen angels come with all the firepower invented through the ages to conquer God's city and tear God from His throne, but -- if God sends any "firepower" then He is a tyrant? No -- this is the last great demonstration, not that "sin kills the sinner" but that these sinners hate and want to destroy the very God Who gave them life, not just once but twice. It demonstrates, once and for all, that sinners WILL kill and exterminate the righteous, unless it is stopped.

The great demonstration is their intense HATRED of God and what God stands for. They want access to the tree of life, but they do not want or love God.
Thus God will NOT continue to grant them life, for indeed to do so He would have to grant them life for eternity -- for Christ did purchase life for every man -- but there is a condition --

Thus they face the judgment -- and everyone realizes the justice of God. They totally "miss" the condition necessary for life in God's universe.

And that condition the people who wish to divest God of His right to execute justice seek to deny.





1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

Those who do not love God, do not dwell in Him. They are gathered, like the dead branches of the vine and given to the fire.

Yes, to disobey God, refusing to "dwell in Him" in love, ends not only in natural death -- the first death,
but also in everlasting death executed at the last judgment.

This is the very last time I will ever respond to you. You have not answered my posts with anything but misdirection and a twisting of words so that the English language becomes meaningless. I see it as so dishonest I am completely disgusted with your behavior.

The 33rd chapter of the Great Controversy is true from my perspective. Your perspective does nothing more than make Ellen White a liar. Retributive justice is not "natural" justice in any way, shape, or form. It is retribution. It is repayment. It is payback. The only way to make retributive justice fit your theology is to ignore the meaning of the English language. Sorry, but that kind of behavior is dishonest to it's very core.

God is loving. God is kind. God is also just. And He will return upon the heads of those who defy Him, His laws, and common decency while at the same time doing all they can to make the lives of their fellow beings miserable just what they have handed out during their lifetimes.

Vengeance is mine: I will repay, saith the Lord. To deny this plain, unequivocal, statement of God's is to make God out to be a liar. Ellen White tells us over and over again to take the Bible "as it reads", and if we do this we cannot go wrong in knowing who God is and what He stands for.

Your theology ultimately makes God out to be some sort of psychopath. If a human being did what you claim God does they would be thrown in jail for abuse and endangerment. Why? Because you make God out to be someone who is so weird that He will not punish His own children, but will instead bring in the neighborhood psychopath and turn him loose upon his own children to punish them while he looks the other way. That is such a vile attack upon God's character it makes me sick.

I didn't come up with the above analogy, but I fully agree with it. The Bible plainly states, and so does Ellen White, that the same angels who protect and serve God's people kill God's, and His people's, enemies when He tells them to, and also will punish His own people, according to God's instructions, when they require it. What do you do? You call "the angel of the Lord" the devil. He is the psychopath in the above analogy that you have God turning loose upon His own children. Just how sick will you make God appear just to justify your pet theology? All this you do so you can say that God will not purposely apply justice and and render sentence upon those who hate Him and everything He stands for.

I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but your theology comes straight from the devil. He is the only being in the universe twisted enough by hatred of God to come up with this.

It was a typo, thanks. If something self-destructs, or if it is smashed with a sledge hammer, is it still destroyed. Yes, sinners will be destroyed! And how does that happen? SIN!!


Sin is the cause both the first and second death. The death that Adam experieced is NOT the death that he was warned about. EGW makes that abundantly clear. No one has ever seen the second death except at the Cross. There, Christ demonstrated it, and we see that God did not execute His Son. Romans 5:10 We were God’s enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God’s friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ’s life!

How does Christ's death make us friends? Because we understand that God is not the problem, Sin is. Christ came to save us from SIN (Matthew 1:21), not what God will do to us if we reject Him!

The first death is NOT the death that Adam was warned about in the Garden. True, both the first and second death are caused by SIN. You in the past have argued that angels are immortal, evident by the fact that Satan has not died. But that is contrary to scripture, and in fact we know that if Satan has experienced the invitable results of his sin, he would had died. [/quote]And how do the sinners die after the resurrection? You say they are tortured and killed. The Bible and SOP say that sin kills them.

When EGW writes, I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. When is she speaking about this? In the final destruction? In their time here on earth now? You say never! The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Korah et al, the destruction of Jerusalem, etc. is not simply God removing His protection, but God actively killing. Is it then the final destruction? Again, you say no. They are both.

Justice - you think that because some suffer cancer and other don't, some are blind and others are not that this is unjust? So God must come in a punish so as to equal out the pain and suffering? Hardly. We do suffer because of our ancesters. Christ came with the same heredity and overcame. The work we have now to do is a work of building the character, and overcoming as Chist overcame, in this body of sinful flesh. This is a work we do NOW, before the coming of Christ, at which time if it is not done, it is too late. That healing must take place, and it is not a legal process. Christ's death on the cross was not the atonement for sin, it was not finished on the Cross. In the legal model, the law demanded death, and on the Cross it had one. But the Sanctuary Service shows us that there is much more work to be done, the work of atonement, typified by the Day of Atonement. If Christ's death was a legal payment for sin, then all are legally pardoned. But not all are saved because many reject the truth and so are not healed. The work of salvation is a struggle against self which required hard work that no legal model can solve.

Or you have not comprehended the language used in the article. How does God punish? Active inflicting of pain and death? Or God standing back and letting cause and effect proceed? The latter. This is what Romans 1 calls God's Wrath, his giving up, handing over, letting go.

To rephrase, love Me, or I'll kill you. No, Sin causes death. Sin killed the Son of God on the Cross, which was a demonstration of the results of Sin, not the first death, but the second death. God did not kill His Son.

The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1}

The death [second death] we deserved [the ultimate consequences of sin] was suffered to come upon him [Christ] {RH, November 28, 1912 par. 4}