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Soul and Body sleep
#184522
07/14/17 03:08 PM
07/14/17 03:08 PM
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OP
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People wrote in to a Christian website asking if the doctrine of soul sleep was Biblical or a "heresy". The answer said it was "heresy", yet we belief it is true and Biblical -- "the dead know not anything" they are not alive floating around without a body. How would you answer the arguments given by this Christian doctor, from the "College of the Open Bible"? Can we open the Bible with good responses? When the Bible speaks of the death of a saint as being "sleep" it is speaking of their BODY, not their soul. In the Old Testament the saints were not in an unconscious state while in the "paradise" section of the underworld. In Luke 16:22-31 Abraham was fully alert. Also, Paul said, "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better."
In II Corinthians 5:8 Paul said, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Then in Revelation 6:10 the souls of some martyrs cry out and ask God, "...How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
The bodies of those who died in Christ are left here in a state of sleep. It is when Christ raptures the Church that each body will be united with their soul (1 Thessalonians. 4:13,18). Death and the grave has lost it's victory (1 Corinthians. 15:54b-55). The gospel of Christ is the provision of the defeat of death and the grave.
When a Christian dies (before the rapture), they are immediately in the presence of Christ. Death has lost it's sting. When Christ returns, our bodies will rise incorruptible. The grave and death are DEAD. Biblicaly speaking, soul sleep is heresy.
Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: dedication]
#184525
07/14/17 06:15 PM
07/14/17 06:15 PM
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I have never gotten into many of the state of the dead debates. However, I think the first thing I would do is point out that the conclusion drawn at the end of parable in Luke 16 has nothing to do with the state of dead. It has to do with whether or not people are going to accept or reject truth. The conclusion of the parable actually teaches that no matter what happens some people will never accept what scripture teaches. Then I would point out to whom this was addressed and how the Jewish leaders were denying Christ. In other words, give context to the parable.
That would sort of be my starting point. I'll have to give it more thought, but that's my first inclination. I don't think I would even attempt to try to start the refutation of all he said in one post. I would tackle it piece-by-piece. Otherwise there is too much room for ducking and dodging and just ignoring anything you say that is hard for them to answer and so deflection away from those points would be the first way to avoid them.
Make sense to you?
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: dedication]
#184526
07/14/17 06:18 PM
07/14/17 06:18 PM
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One other thing I would point out is that there is no need for a spirit to drink water. Only the human body would require water, yet his argument is that the body is dead. This is a logical contradiction contained in his own argument.
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: dedication]
#184540
07/15/17 10:57 AM
07/15/17 10:57 AM
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Dear Dr. Arthur Belanger,
When studying Bible doctrines, it is important to look at the message of all of the Bible's texts on a topic to avoid misinterpreting based on a single text that might otherwise appear to have a unique message. It is also helpful, to avoid strange doctrines, to look carefully at the context of the outlier texts to make sure we have not misunderstood their intent, or inferred a private interpretation from them.
Beginning with 2 Corinthians 5:8, the word "body" used there is also used throughout the New Testament to refer to the church, the body of Christ, of which each individual member is but part (see Romans 12:4-5).
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:4-5, KJV)
Knowing that "body" can have more than one usage in Paul's writings, let us be careful to understand what the Bible teaches in other places before jumping to conclusions.
First, what is "soul"? The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, meaning a living being with breath.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7, KJV)
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4, KJV)
Paul, in the New Testament, works from the same definition.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45, KJV)
How could one continue to breathe without a body? In fact, the Bible teaches that in death, breathing ceases.
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. (Psalms 104:29, KJV)
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalms 146:4, KJV)
So, the breath is lost in death. What else does the Bible teach about death?
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psalms 115:17, KJV)
If we were present with the Lord in death, would we not praise Him?
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, KJV)
If we were present with the Lord in death, would we not know it and take comfort by it? Would we not love God? But, according to the Bible, dead people no longer have thoughts or knowledge, no longer praise God, no longer have either love or hatred.
Death is called a sleep in the Bible.
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (Psalms 13:3, KJV)
Jesus taught that death was a sleep as well, thus comforting His disciples with the knowledge that He could wake the dead from their sleep. This concept appears in all four of the Gospels.
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. (Matthew 9:24, KJV)
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. (Mark 5:39, KJV)
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. (Luke 8:52, KJV)
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (John 11:13, KJV)
And Paul also refers to death as a sleep.
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (Ephesians 5:14, KJV)
The Bible teaches that the dead lie in their unconscious state until the resurrection, of which there are two: the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation.
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29, KJV)
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6, KJV)
Therefore, we conclude that to die is to enter a state of unconsciousness, like sleep, where one has no knowledge of his or her surroundings. The dead in Christ await the coming of the Lord to be raised with new, incorruptible bodies; while the wicked dead await the second resurrection to receive their punishment.
Sincerely,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#184545
07/15/17 07:36 PM
07/15/17 07:36 PM
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OP
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Thank-you Green, for giving some thoughtful, Bible answers to the question.
We have been warned that "spiritualism" with supposed contact with the dead, will be a major, deceptive problem in the time of the end.
So we need to have our feet firmly planted on this subject.
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: ]
#184546
07/15/17 08:47 PM
07/15/17 08:47 PM
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OP
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However, I think the first thing I would do is point out that the conclusion drawn at the end of parable in Luke 16 has nothing to do with the state of dead. It has to do with whether or not people are going to accept or reject truth. The conclusion of the parable actually teaches that no matter what happens some people will never accept what scripture teaches. Then I would point out to whom this was addressed and how the Jewish leaders were denying Christ. In other words, give context to the parable.
That would sort of be my starting point. I'll have to give it more thought, but that's my first inclination. I don't think I would even attempt to try to start the refutation of all he said in one post. I would tackle it piece-by-piece.
Good suggestion -- to start with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. Defining the audience: It was a parable told to unbelieving Jewish leaders. The concluding sentence is interesting: " If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."Why does Jesus switch the storyline from "send Lazarus" to warn them, as this Lazarus was depicted as being in Abraham's bosom --
to
"neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." ?
Jesus told this parable using the name "Lazarus" because shortly thereafter, one would be raised from the dead with that name, as a witness to "warn" those alive at the time. No -- it's not the same "Lazarus", the first was simply a parable, but the Lazarus who was raised, was a real man. But it proved the point of the parable. Jesus' raising of Lazarus back to life marked a turning point. Some of the Jews who witnessed this miracle reported it to the Pharisees, who called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. They began to plot Jesus' murder. Rather than acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah because of this miracle, the chief priests also plotted to kill Lazarus to destroy the proof of Jesus' divinity. Here is the parable -- there are many more points for discussion in it. Luke16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: ]
#184587
07/17/17 02:32 AM
07/17/17 02:32 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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One other thing I would point out is that there is no need for a spirit to drink water. Only the human body would require water, yet his argument is that the body is dead. This is a logical contradiction contained in his own argument. Good point. There are a few other physical references in the passage. lift up his eyes, without a body one won't have eyes being in torments, without a body one would have no nerves to feel dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongueWithout a body one would have no finger or tongue.
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#184656
07/26/17 12:35 AM
07/26/17 12:35 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Dear Dr. Arthur Belanger,
When studying Bible doctrines, it is important to look at the message of all of the Bible's texts on a topic to avoid misinterpreting based on a single text that might otherwise appear to have a unique message. It is also helpful, to avoid strange doctrines, to look carefully at the context of the outlier texts to make sure we have not misunderstood their intent, or inferred a private interpretation from them.
Beginning with 2 Corinthians 5:8, the word "body" used there is also used throughout the New Testament to refer to the church, the body of Christ, of which each individual member is but part (see Romans 12:4-5).
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:4-5, KJV)
Knowing that "body" can have more than one usage in Paul's writings, let us be careful to understand what the Bible teaches in other places before jumping to conclusions.
First, what is "soul"? The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, meaning a living being with breath.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7, KJV)
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4, KJV)
Paul, in the New Testament, works from the same definition.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45, KJV)
How could one continue to breathe without a body? In fact, the Bible teaches that in death, breathing ceases.
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. (Psalms 104:29, KJV)
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalms 146:4, KJV)
So, the breath is lost in death. What else does the Bible teach about death?
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psalms 115:17, KJV)
If we were present with the Lord in death, would we not praise Him?
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, KJV)
If we were present with the Lord in death, would we not know it and take comfort by it? Would we not love God? But, according to the Bible, dead people no longer have thoughts or knowledge, no longer praise God, no longer have either love or hatred.
Death is called a sleep in the Bible.
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (Psalms 13:3, KJV)
Jesus taught that death was a sleep as well, thus comforting His disciples with the knowledge that He could wake the dead from their sleep. This concept appears in all four of the Gospels.
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. (Matthew 9:24, KJV)
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. (Mark 5:39, KJV)
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. (Luke 8:52, KJV)
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (John 11:13, KJV)
And Paul also refers to death as a sleep.
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (Ephesians 5:14, KJV)
The Bible teaches that the dead lie in their unconscious state until the resurrection, of which there are two: the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation.
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29, KJV)
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6, KJV)
Therefore, we conclude that to die is to enter a state of unconsciousness, like sleep, where one has no knowledge of his or her surroundings. The dead in Christ await the coming of the Lord to be raised with new, incorruptible bodies; while the wicked dead await the second resurrection to receive their punishment.
Sincerely,
Green Cochoa.
Job 7:7-10; 7) O remember that my life [is] wind: mine eye shall no more see good. 8) The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no [more]: thine eyes [are] upon me, and I [am] not. 9) [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more]. 10) He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more. The Bible is clear that there isn't any kind of limbo condition of the body. It is gone and will not rise up and go to his house or home anymore.
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 07/26/17 12:48 AM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: dedication]
#184663
07/26/17 04:25 AM
07/26/17 04:25 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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The Spirit Returns to God-- some see this to mean a disembodied, but still a living, conscious form of the person returns to God at death. The following is taken from "Seventh-day Adventists believe" Chapter 25. Though the body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God. Solomon said that at death "the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). This is true of all, both the righteous and the wicked.
Many have thought that this text gives evidence that the essence of the person continues to live after death. But in the Bible neither the Hebrew nor the Greek term for spirit (ruach and pneuma, respectively) refers to an intelligent entity capable of a conscious existence apart from the body. Rather, these terms refer to the "breath"—the spark of life essential to individual existence, the life principle that animates animals and human beings (see chapter 7 of this book).
Solomon wrote, "'Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ["spirit," margin; ruach]; man has no advantage over the animal. . . . All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit [ruach] of man rises upward and if the spirit [ruach] of the animal goes down into the earth?'" (Eccl. 3:19-21, NIV). So, according to Solomon, at death there is no difference between the spirits of man and beast.
Solomon's statement that the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it indicates that what returns to God is simply the life principle that He imparted. There is no indication that the spirit, or breath, was a conscious entity separate from the body. This ruach can be equated with the "breath of life" that God breathed into the first human being to animate his lifeless body (cf. Gen. 2:7).
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Re: Soul and Body sleep
[Re: dedication]
#184676
07/27/17 01:25 AM
07/27/17 01:25 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
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Job 10:20-22;
20) [Are] not my days few? cease [then, and] let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
21) Before I go [whence] I shall not return, [even] to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22) A land of darkness, as darkness [itself; and] of the shadow of death, without any order, and [where] the light [is] as darkness. (bold emphasis mine)
I find it quite telling that Bible writers never talk about any existence in death or the grave. Never do they say our body is in the grave, but, my life or soul is in Heaven or paradise.
Yet, some Christians claim some kind of limbo or something anyway.
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