John saw many angels when in vision. Jones is implying a "primary" angel, creating an order of the visions. Not sure you can do that. And especially crossing from chapter 12 into 11. Two totally different sets of visions.

Did John see Revelation over time or all in one setting? If one setting, can the phrase, "another angel", be used to imply order rather than just another angel of many he had seen?

For if order is implied throughout Revelation, to mean the three angels come after the trumpets, then what does one do with the fact of the "another angel" with the everlasting gospel comes after the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth standing with the Lamb as seen in the first part of the same chapter 14?

No, I don't think John sees Revelation all in one setting.
There is a definite sequential order, however, it is given in overlaying imagery.

Sort of like overlaying one picture with another picture--

First you see only the seven churches stretched across the landscape of the post-cross history.
Then another transparency is placed on top, and now you still see the churches, but above them four horses are riding, and a few other images appear near the end- like rocks falling, and angel's holding winds.
Then a third transparency is placed over it-- and we see how the winds were building up throughout history.
By the end of the book, when all the transparencies are in place, the earth's whole history from the cross to the final restoration is all filled in -- it is one story, but it came in layers.

Thus yes, we can see some organization in the angels.

There are announcement angels -- angel's that announce something to the people of earth, these are the ones that pertain to the discussion.

Then there are action angels.

And there are "human" messengers or leaders.


Action angels would include:
Rev. 1:1 angel sent to guide John in his writing and understanding (He is mentioned in several places in the book)
Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, with incense...
Revelation 8 and 9 The seven trumpet angels are action angels
Rev. 15-16 Seven plague angels
Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit


Human messengers or leaders "angels":
Seven angels (those to whom the letters were given) of the seven churches.


The ones we are most interested in for this discussion are the
Announcement angels:

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book. (He announces the opening of Christ's work in the sanctuary)

Rev. 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God:

Both the above angels are announcing something that concerns the work of heavenly beings. They aren't part of the warning angels.

So that takes us to the angel which A.T.Jones, identified as the "primary angel" in the messages of warning given to the people of earth.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe,

This is NOT a trumpet angel even though he appears between the fourth and fifth trumpets.
The significance here is that the "beast" that was created by imperial Rome will now, after the fall of imperial Rome rise to power that will cause much woe.

Interesting -- contrast the three "woe, woe, woe" with the "holy, holy, holy" that the heavenly hosts sing to God.
This is very much in connection with Rev. 12 and 13 -- there the Unholy trinity is exposed. The dragon (father of evil) the "beast" in the place of Christ, and the "image of the beast" playing the role of the Holy Spirit in leading people to the one sitting in the place of Christ.

Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven,

Announces the end of the time lines --
At that point the beast looses his power, a period of relative peace and freedom enables people to "prophecy again" and give the final message.

Rev. 14:6 First angel's message
Rev. 14:8 Second angel's message
Rev. 14:9 Third angel's message

These are strong warnings against the beast, image of the beast and dragon, while urging the people to return to the worship of their Creator God.

Rev. 14 has three more angels, but their messages occur after the close of probation and are directed to One reaping the earth.

There is one more angel urgently warning the people of earth, he unites with the second angel's message for a last urgent call to come out of false worship.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

When this next angel appears, it will be too late.

Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Back to an analysis of the third Angel's message based on the Trumpets.

A point was brought out that the Roman Empire did not fall while it was in its “pagan state” it fell after it became “Christian”. Why, would this happen? Isn’t it logical to think that becoming a Christian empire should bring with it a godly way of life complete with God’s blessings and protection?

The fact of course is, that Imperial Rome took the name “Christian” but denied the power of true Christianity. Their lives did not change. Imperial Rome supported the papacy into becoming the “head” of all religion. A religion they expected everyone to uniformly embrace. They groomed the “beast” power, and elevated him above other religious leaders.

Yet, the state of society was steeped in licentiousness, immorality, greed, and evil of many kinds.
The following text fully defined the state of things:
2 Tim. 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:

God could not bless; thus the judgments fell.



IN the events of the first four of the Seven Trumpets, the Western Empire of Rome fell.
Out of the tribes of barbarians, which, like mighty tides, in succession overflowed the territory of Western Rome, ten established themselves in ten independent kingdoms.

These ten kingdoms were first mentioned in the prophecy of Daniel, especially in the "ten horns" of the "fourth beast." Dan. 7:7, 24. They are referred to later in the book of Revelation, in the description of the dragon, and also of the Beast, each having "seven heads and ten horns."

So what happened now in the religious field?

In the prophecy of Daniel seven, it is related that there would come up among these ten another one, more stout than the rest, and by it three of the ten would be "plucked up by the roots." This stout horn would speak great words of blasphemy, seek to change times and laws, and persecutes God's saints.

In other words – Imperial Rome fell, but out of the ashes of that fallen civilization the papacy would emerge “more stout” or stronger than the other ten horns that took over the territories.

The fall of Rome was a mighty shaking up of nations, divinely symbolized by the trumpets blown by angels who stand in the presence of God. Its fall is a type of the trouble, preceding the final destruction of the world.

When nations fell, and emperors ceased to grant protection, men sought safety in the shadow of the church. Daily the power of the pope increased, and from the decaying ruins of ancient Rome, the papacy rose. But even though the church had the name of life, it was dead.

Thus it will be again in the near future, when society no longer offers security, people will seek safety in the shadow of the church of Rome, the papacy will emerge as the great savior, with the answers. An image to the papacy will form, but though it has the name of life, it is dead and brings only more woes upon itself and the world.

Again:
For if order is implied throughout Revelation, to mean the three angels come after the trumpets, then what does one do with the fact of the "another angel" with the everlasting gospel comes after the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth standing with the Lamb as seen in the first part of the same chapter 14?

After the first four trumpets an angel with a message is heard -- WOE, WOE, WOE,

Why? Because Papal Rome stoops to conquer.

Few see that connection, but that is the underlying theme in the trumpets.
To understand we need to go back in time before the four trumpets sounded. We already noted that imperial Rome, was grooming the Roman bishop as the supreme pontiff, and Christianity was adopting and "Christianizing" pagan customs. Christianity had all but lost it's spiritual power to transform lives.

But in the east things were developing a little differently. When Jerusalem fell, thousands of Christian Jews fled across the Jordan. According to Eusebius these Christians fled to the city of Pella and surrounding areas. Christianity became quite strong in the Syrian and trans-Jordan regions, as can be seen by studying the ruins of ancient cities in that area.

The Biblical truths that were established in the first few centuries of Christianity were largely to the credit of the Syrian Christian bishops and leaders who stood up against the strange theories that were coming into the church.

When Imperial Rome made Christianity the state religion, everything shifted to the power of Rome, including theological matters. Persecution of Christians did not stop, as is often assumed, when Rome became Christian. Only then it was called "heretic hunting". By the time emperor Justinian in 532 was ruling, he followed a very aggressive policy of subjecting everything to imperial Christianity.

Devout Christians who could not agree with the Imperial Christianity were seriously persecuted. Thousands migrated from the Syrian region east into the Persian Empire and even further. Thus Christianity spread eastward from Syria on into India. These were Sabbath keeping Christians (an interesting study of its own).

So this was the condition of things when the Eastern Emperor, Justinian, encoded in law that the pope, who was now the sole Roman authority in the west, was the head of all churches and was to deal with all "heretics".

They had already routed the three strong Semi-Arian tribes, (plucked up three of the horns) but how were they going to deal with all those "heretics" who had fled into other territories?

Another problem was a constant fighting between Eastern Roman Empire and the Persian Empire.

A solution -- get the Arabs united into a united fighting condition and get them to subdue the Persians and deal with all those "heretics". And, the plan was also to get Jerusalem back into the control of Rome.


ORIGINS OF ISLAM

According to al-islam.org Mohammad was born to Abdullah and Amina. His father, Abdullah, passed away a few days before his birth. He was born in the city of Mecca in Arabia. His forefathers were the chiefs of the tribe of Quraysh. The first five years of his life, Mohammad was taken care of by a country woman, then he returned to be with his mother, but she died a year later. He then went to live with his uncle and his wife, Abu Talib and Fatima.

Another source tells us:
'Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training preparing him for his mission. Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine, which prepared him for his "great calling." Other Catholics helped influence him. The Vatican had Catholic Arabs spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.
Their scheme worked! Sort of -- but not the way they had hoped. Muhammad believed he was specially chosen, he had revelations, and wrote the Koran. Creating a "new" monotheistic religion out of a mix of Old Testament teachings, Christian teachings, his own interpretations and ideas and Arab culture. Overcoming a few set backs, he eventually had great success in winning his country men, and soon they started to do just what the Catholics hoped they would do -- BUT these Arabs had no intentions of "serving" the Catholics, or giving them any of their conquered lands!

Mohammedanism moved like a tornado in the years following 622 A.D., conquering Saudi Arabia, Egypt, defeating the Persians and taking Syria and Palestine, but they also took lands from the eastern Roman Empire, and all of northern Africa.

The scheme was backfiring, and as the Muslim Arabs started coming up into Spain, Papal Rome was very worried -- that was not how the plan was supposed to work.

The His Child effect: Can't answer the question, avoid it.

Already answered your question -- in the "layered" illustration, post 4201.
I have no desire to go in circles when my answers are not read.

If Islam has origins from Catholicism, why the resistance of recognizing the King of the North being those that occupy the territory located North of Israel? Western Rome was broken up into 10 kingdoms, and Eastern Rome, the capital in Constantinople, was eventually taken over by the Ottoman Turks. Not even James White called the KOTN the Papacy, he called it Rome. It is the remains of Eastern Rome. Rome includes more that just the Papacy, how about Opus Dei and the Jesuits? Just because the scheme backfired, does not remove who now occupies the territory in the North.

So far --

• The papacy was groomed by Imperial Rome.
• A powerless form of Christianity doing nothing to transform the carnal nature results in a licentious society bearing Christ's name.
• The western imperial Rome is "weighed in the balances" and found wanting and falls. (Trumpet after trumpet sounds as it crumbles under the onslaught of armies)
• Papal Rome rises from the ashes of imperial Rome and gains sovereign power over religion for 1260 years.
• The nature of sovereign power over religion is to eradicate all who don't agree with that power and submit to its mandates.
• Three strong Semi-Arian nations uprooted under combined efforts and influence of Papacy and eastern emperor.
• There are still many true Christians in the east, they start fleeing further east out of range of the beast power.
• Wars with Persia, (where many of these Christians had fled) as well as the desire to control Jerusalem, which the Persians had captured in 614 AD, caused the papal party to devise a plan to use the Arab armies settle these matters for them.
• Mohammad was "groomed" to lead in this plan.
• But that backfired big time. As the now combined Arab tribes had no desire to fight for the Catholics.

So now let's turn again to A.T.Jones' account.

...."The first four trumpets sound in Rev. 8:7-12. Immediately following the fourth, between that and
....the fifth trumpet angel, comes in the first one in this other series of angels that connects straight
....through to the Third Angel's Message.

...."We have found that the Seven Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast,
....which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity. The Beast was made in the Roman Empire by the
....union of the apostate church with that republic which had degenerated into an imperial despotism;
....and the result to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast, was the utter ruin of that empire.

{Did the eastern Roman Empire learn the lesson? No, it did not, but in its turn helped elevate the papacy to even greater levels, thus too, the result of linking up with the papacy brought about it's utter ruin as well.)

....Sept, 4, 1900 RH
...."The fifth and sixth trumpets, likewise, mark the ruin of the Eastern Empire of Rome, and introduce
....the peoples by whom that ruin was accomplished, who are the modern nations of Eastern Europe and of Asia.
......."And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
.......and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit;
.......and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace;...Rev. 9.

....This trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A.D. 632-1449,
....—and shows the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of Eastern Rome—first
....the Arabian Mohammedans and later the Turkish Mohammedans. Of this Albert Barnes remarks that,
...."with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the
....empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed."
....We can not see how any one who will ready the prophecy, and Gibbon's history of Mohammed and his
....successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans.

....The term "bottomless pit," which denotes the place of their rise, is from the Greek word abussos,
....and signifies a waste, desolate region.
....And to any one who will read Gibbon's chapter L, paragraphs 2-5, the significance and aptness
....of the term as applied to Arabia will readily be discerned.

....The vast hordes of the Mohammedans are shown under the symbol of a cloud of locusts;
....and in verses 7-9 the meaning of the symbol is made plain by the words,
....... "The shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; . . .
........and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle."

....For more than six hundred years the Mohammedans had no regularly organized government,
....and recognized no such dignitary as that which answers to the title of king....
....They were united by religion, not by a king. While this was the case, it is evident, and it
....is the fact too, that their character as "a destroyer," was not, and could not be, such as it
....was after they were solidly united in one government, under the sway of a ruler recognized by all.

....This is made more apparent when it is seen what was to be destroyed by this "destroyer."
....The first four trumpets show the ruin of the Western Empire of Rome; and the fifth
....relates to the destruction of the Eastern Empire. And it is in the character of the destroyer
....of the last remains of the Imperial Roman Empire that this power acts...as "a destroyer," to
....the final destruction of the Roman Empire, which was then represented in the Eastern Empire,
....with the capital at New Rome—Constantinople.


But lets look at those first 600 years before discussing the 150 years.

Those 600 years were years of crusades and war!

The new Islamic power launched countless crusades against all the countries around them! Islamic Crusades were very successful. The Byzantines and Persian Empires had worn themselves out with fighting. Into this weakened political scene stormed Islam.

If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim chief.

Those early years of Muslim history saw many Muslim conquests spreading over many countries. From a long list of conquests, here's just a sampling:

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire, though the city was not taken at that time.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem. Only six decades after Muhammad’s death the Muslims had set up their tabernacles in the so called "holy city" of Jerusalem.

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; they raid Southern Italy.

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked . Christians do not fare well in Palestine.

It is obvious that Islam is expansionist, even before they had a "king" over them, their very religion motivated them to conquer and subjugate the world to express Allah’s perfect will on this planet.

In this the Muslims and the Roman Papal ambitions are the same. Both looked to the sword as the means to "convert" the world. Christian Europe was also divided into several tribes, each with their own king, but it was also religion that united them, with pope the head of religion.

It was still within those 600 years we see the Papal crusades retaliating:

1095 Pope Urban II calls for the first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099.

In 1147–49, the Second Crusade attempted to take Damascus
in Syria. The campaign was a dismal failure because the Muslims had regrouped. Led by Salah al-Din (Saladin), Muslim forces advanced across Syria and finally retook Jerusalem in October 1187.

1189–92 the Third Crusade

1202 -- the fourth crusade showed the real character of papal Rome. By this time the eastern, Bysantium Christians had broken away from the papal led religion. Constantinople Christianity would not acknowledge the pope as their head.
Next we see the Papal Crusaders besieging the Byzantium’s capital, Constantinople. They conquered the city, pillaged and robbed it, and set it up as Latin city.
Yes, the fourth Crusades biggest accomplishment had nothing to do with Muslims, it was the papal armies that besieged, conquered and pillaged Constantinople.

1261 the Byzantium's regained Constantinople, but the Byzantium Empire was so weakened it had little defenses to withstand Muslim threats.

Papal Christianity sent many crusades against CHRISTIAN centers to destroy those who would not be subject to the pope.

It's true the Muslims destroyed the eastern Roman Empire later on, but Papal Rome also helped to destroy the Byzantine Empire.
Roman Christianity is no more tolerant and just as globally ambitious as the Muslim nations.

These are the two forces whose goal is to control the world and enforce their religion upon all.

All those crusades and battles of Christians and Muslims happened BEFORE the 150 year spoken of the 5th trumpet.

As Jones wrote -- the fifth trumpet covers 800 years of Muslim/Christian war, and caps it off with the 150 years.
We'll talk about the 150 years in the next post.

Roman Christianity would love for people to think they are the good guys in these battles -- the ones to save the world. But they are not. Those who look to them as spiritual leaders will suffer the same fate as western Rome and eastern Rome.
When the USA finalizes its hand clasp with papal Rome it too will end up in utter ruin.